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inferno

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I’m also available for TF beer can dura marathon testing.

View attachment 116902
my testing protocol basically works like this: you take 10 alu cans. and you try to chop them into pieces. and not until they are flat are you done chopping. really flat.

then you simply judge the size and number of chips/rolls of the edge after the test. is it severe/minor/medium? and this is basically how you find out if the steel is tough or not. well i do at least :)
 

Qapla'

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if anyone wants to send me a free denka i'm willing to do the "beer can dura marathon test" with it. just so you know.
I’m also available for TF beer can dura marathon testing.
Which knives are those?

As for TF deba's, I'd be interested in understanding just why one would buy a TF Denka deba over, say, an Ichimonji Kirameki (at nearly half the price). Or a Masamoto white honyaki at a comparable price, for that matter.
 
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tcmx3

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I am not writing criticism off. If you used the knife and didn't like it or feel that it is not worth the price it is perfectly fair. Even if you haven't used it and decide that it is too much for what it is fair as well. If you haven't and chime into every TF thread to say that you don't understand why anyone would pay this much for a crappy knife, then I have a problem with it. Again not addressed to you specifically just an observation about TF discussions.
Ill give you that, but I think much like equal and opposite reaction there is absolutely an equivalent amount of people defending their egos vis-a-vis their purchase decisions.

some folks very badly need to separate their self-worth from their knife purchases and it shows in TF threads just like the folks who want to knock it before theyve tried it.
 

inferno

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Which knives are those?

As for TF deba's, I'd be interested in understanding just why one would buy a TF Denka deba over, say, an Ichimonji Kirameki (at nearly half the price). Or a Masamoto white honyaki at a comparable price, for that matter.
why would anyone buy a tf knife over anything else? its one of those eternal questions that there is no answer for.
 

ModRQC

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I've had a recent... significant experience with TF. Will post about it soon, I think it tells some part of the whole story rather well.

I think what baffles me the most is how many bad comments TF can get against other makers, where in my experience I've seen worse and I've seen better. The truest thing is how F&F fluctuates widely, more than it being a "problem" of itself through these fluctuations. Then again, I sure won't advocate no kind of forgiving attitude towards what is plain neglect. Then again, this has to be identified carefully - outside comparison with other makers just to say, well for that price F&F is better, doesn't really work.
 

DitmasPork

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why would anyone buy a tf knife over anything else? its one of those eternal questions that there is no answer for.
Why? Easy. Great knives, for those who love them. Certainly one of the more distinctive knives on the market, great cutter. TBH, many of the Sakai gyutos look alike to me.

It's silly to expect everyone to have the same taste. My vegan and jain friends ask—why would anyone want to eat meat?

TF one of the few makers that elicits passions for or against. Since an ever popular discussion topic, TF's denkas are a knife that any every serious J-knife enthusiast should at least try.

It's like food, gotta try tripe, uni or natto to decide if you like or dislike them.


667390EF-00D8-46F2-93E4-6B31AA04BB54.jpeg
 

tostadas

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To me, the definition of "good F&F" is relative. I feel like slightly non-perfect scales on a yo handled TF are still more comfortable to me than some cleaner finished octo or D- handles. And what some retailers consider "rounded" choils and spines are still too rough for my liking.

Severe overgrinds in the blade are something I have not experienced in my TF samples. However, if I had one with such an issue, then I would be upset.

One thing that does seem to be consistent with TF is the heat treat of the steel. It is done very well. This is the most important thing that I expect on a high end knife, since it's not something that an end user like me can fix with sandpaper or stones.
 

tcmx3

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Why? Easy. Great knives, for those who love them. Certainly one of the more distinctive knives on the market, great cutter. TBH, many of the Sakai gyutos look alike to me.

It's silly to expect everyone to have the same taste. My vegan and jain friends ask—why would anyone want to eat meat?

TF one of the few makers that elicits passions for or against. Since an ever popular discussion topic, TF's denkas are a knife that any every serious J-knife enthusiast should at least try.

It's like food, gotta try tripe, uni or natto to decide if you like or dislike them.


View attachment 116911
what percentage of that comes down to the price, especially the price for a 240 gyuto (presumably the most popular offering around these parts)?

the big issue I have isnt about whether it's a good knife or not, anyone with a brain can tell they have some serious merits. it's whether I trust that people are being even a tiny bit objective about something they spent so much money on, because in my experience the answer is usually no.

I dont expect full objectivity, that would be both a stupid expectation from the perspective of people arent objective in general but also because subjective reasons are perfectly valid, too.

the conversation around TF knives sometimes evokes the memories I have of 70s Fender guitars. everyone knows what the deal is, but now that the prices of those are so high, the owners are out there effectively lobbying others to agree with the valuation of the guitars for reasons of ego, collectability, etc. I dont like that and I dont like the implications of a person coming on a forum mostly about Japanese knives and telling people to google wabi sabi.

and that's why any criticism you'll ever see of TF, Kato, etc. from me will include the disclosure of what I own AND the things I like to try and at least present my complaints in the context of my overall feelings.
 

Barmoley

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what percentage of that comes down to the price, especially the price for a 240 gyuto (presumably the most popular offering around these parts)?

the big issue I have isnt about whether it's a good knife or not, anyone with a brain can tell they have some serious merits. it's whether I trust that people are being even a tiny bit objective about something they spent so much money on, because in my experience the answer is usually no.

I dont expect full objectivity, that would be both a stupid expectation from the perspective of people arent objective in general but also because subjective reasons are perfectly valid, too.
This is true of any expensive purchase. People always defend their choices more so the higher the price goes. You have to agree that there is generally no malicious intent in TF fans and that owners mostly don't lie to the forum to keep their resale value high. If you don't believe this then any discussion is pointless.

So if we agree that there is no malice and just normal human bias then we can also agree that there is something about these knives to keep them in business and priced high for many years now. Same can be said about any popular expensive knives, I might not understand Shig, Kato, Mazaki damascus, Jiro, etc prices, but I will also not actively discourage people from buying these knives. TF just seems to draw more hate and fan love than other brands.
 

Corradobrit1

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what percentage of that comes down to the price, especially the price for a 240 gyuto (presumably the most popular offering around these parts)?

the big issue I have isnt about whether it's a good knife or not, anyone with a brain can tell they have some serious merits. it's whether I trust that people are being even a tiny bit objective about something they spent so much money on, because in my experience the answer is usually no.

I dont expect full objectivity, that would be both a stupid expectation from the perspective of people arent objective in general but also because subjective reasons are perfectly valid, too.

the conversation around TF knives sometimes evokes the memories I have of 70s Fender guitars. everyone knows what the deal is, but now that the prices of those are so high, the owners are out there effectively lobbying others to agree with the valuation of the guitars for reasons of ego, collectability, etc. I dont like that and I dont like the implications of a person coming on a forum mostly about Japanese knives and telling people to google wabi sabi.

and that's why any criticism you'll ever see of TF, Kato, etc. from me will include the disclosure of what I own AND the things I like to try and at least present my complaints in the context of my overall feelings.
Get a Morihei Hisamoto 240. SS or iron clad, fine finish or not? The prices. even after a recent increase, are still significantly below the equivalent Mab. Personally I don't want a 240 so am happy to pick up cheaper smaller blade direct and the current 210's are oversized. There is no justification for the massive jump for what is only ~20mm of extra edge length.

I don't need to justify my purchase of TF. I have several Kato's and an Ashi Honyaki that cost considerably more. I would sell all of these before letting my Denka's go.
 
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Corradobrit1

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my custom denka cuts like turd, i have sent it to another maker for a regrind 🤣🤣🤣

why would I spend this much on a knife I don't like the grind on? cause the profile and steel are elite
I tried one vintage Denka 240 and that was a wedge monster. A previous owner had screwed it up and the result was a disaster. So yes, there are turds out there but not when purchased direct from TF these days. Its been said before and I'll say it again, the issues with grinds (my biggest concern) etc have been addressed to the point where TF is no better or worse than other makers. All the crappy TF's I've handled were from third party vendors or used.
 

WiriWiri

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I can freely admit that I like both of the TFs I‘ve owned - really rather excellent cutters - and even quite like the panto villain status of the man, even If I can’t fully comprehend the full-on emotions the subject stirs up on occasion. Agree with ModRQC that there are probably worse and better offenders, and I find it hard to care too much really.

My gut feel/ludicrous current pet theory is that there’s a strange feeling of unfairness surrounding TF knives. Many of us, myself included, at least partially buy into the romantic notion of dedicated smiths honing their craft, whilst increasing experience and exposure to their work help us in turn find the ‘right’ blade(s) for us.

So it’s slightly grating and ego-deflating to find out that someone who makes some of the most potentially excellent all-round blades just doesn’t seem to fit that pattern - despite years and years of the same consistent moaning from every quarter, doesn‘t really seem to have bothered to have improved his offering in the slightest. I wouldn‘t be altogether surprised if he skips out of his workshop early every Friday, leaving his marginally untrained underlings in charge, while he flip-flops over to the local bar for a rousing rendition of ’I don‘t do Kaizen and I don‘t care’
 

Corradobrit1

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So it’s slightly grating and ego-deflating to find out that someone who makes some of the most potentially excellent all-round blades just doesn’t seem to fit that pattern - despite years and years of the same consistent moaning from every quarter, doesn‘t really seem to have bothered to have improved his offering in the slightest. I wouldn‘t be altogether surprised if he skips out of his workshop early every Friday, leaving his marginally untrained underlings in charge, while he flip-flops over to the local bar for a rousing rendition of ’I don‘t do Kaizen and I don‘t care’
TF IV is not involved in making standard TF knives anymore. The factory is far from him outside Tokyo and is manned by 5 guys including his son, so continuing the family tradition. "Untrained underlings" LOL. One of the guys is over 75 years old. Another 2-3 are master craftsmen with a similar combined experience as bladesmiths.
 
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tcmx3

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This is true of any expensive purchase. People always defend their choices more so the higher the price goes. You have to agree that there is generally no malicious intent in TF fans and that owners mostly don't lie to the forum to keep their resale value high. If you don't believe this then any discussion is pointless.

So if we agree that there is no malice and just normal human bias then we can also agree that there is something about these knives to keep them in business and priced high for many years now. Same can be said about any popular expensive knives, I might not understand Shig, Kato, Mazaki damascus, Jiro, etc prices, but I will also not actively discourage people from buying these knives. TF just seems to draw more hate and fan love than other brands.
I will readily agree there is no malice or intentional price manipulation.

afterall, we're just dealing with individuals here.

also my suggestion was that TF discussions evoked those 70s Fender convos, not that it was 1:1. I dont think people are buying TFs as "appreciating assets" (which is laughable but there you go with guitar collecting) so I think even the subconscious urge to minimize criticism is a fair bit lower.

Ive hinted at this recently but for me Ive had a bit of a revelation buying a bit less expensive knives than I used to and being willing to aggressively take them to the stones, and seeing how I can get performance from a $250 mazaki or hinoura that I used to think required you to shell out >500 clams. I think of all the folks around here, if a TF 240 were priced more in line with what other folks charged I would probably be in the cheering section.

also yes @Corradobrit1 the Morihei iron clad is actually on my list as it's easily the most appealing of the bunch to me since I really do not like stainless cladding.
 

panda

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I tried one vintage Denka 240 and that was a wedge monster. A previous owner had screwed it up and the result was a disaster. So yes, there are turds out there but not when purchased direct from TF these days. Its been said before and I'll say it again, the issues with grinds (my biggest concern) etc have been addressed to the point where TF is no better or worse than other makers. All the crappy TF's I've handled were from third party vendors or used.
mine was a custom.ordered direct.
 

WiriWiri

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TF IV is not involved in making standard TF knives anymore. The factory is far from him outside Tokyo and is manned by 5 guys including his son, so continuing the family tradition. "Untrained underlings" LOL. One of the guys is over 75 years old. Another 2-3 are master craftsmen with a similar combined experience as bladesmiths.
Needless to say, I didn‘t intend that post to be entirely accurate or rooted in anything approaching reality, but cheers for the helpful added detail.

Regardless of their expertise, they remain strangely myopic to many obvious F&F issues
 

Rangen

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I have an aversion to talking about why I like my TFs and their rustic aesthetic so much. I think it's a fear that I might discover one of two things:

Either I like things that are sort of steampunk, which would be embarrassing because I hate that word

Or I like the fact that they look a long way from perfect because I will probably eff up the look at some point, and I won't need to worry because rustic.
 

nwshull

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Hopefully my mention of wabi sabi in another thread recently didn't contribute to this. I like TF knives, my most personalized knife is a nashiji, but I don't think that's what these are. To my understanding a wabi sabi aesthetic has subtle mastery masked within deliberate imperfection. My interpretation of TF knives are that they, like many knives from more famous smiths have their prices raised from price inflation over the passed few years. Which honestly, is fine. I think a lot of people who complain about cost, don't always think, of the time it would take them to do something by hand vs an hourly wage they would accept for it being a pain in the ass.

I think with TF its more a factor of the Western market has a higher demand for fit and finish, and also a higher thorough put demand generally. They want more knives and they want them done better. Small scale production doesn't generally ramp up to do both well. My TF is now a very nice knife. I got it professionally reground, and put a Dave Martell handle on it, he also rounded the spine while doing so. A lot of people complain about TF prices, but they need to think if its what the market will support why shouldn't they ask it? Knife making is a hard job. You do hit a point with your product if you don't deliver the hype. Look at Masamoto KSs these days, I remember a few years back they were hitting almost 1 k resale. Now they sit in stock.
 

DavidPF

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the Western market has a higher demand for fit and finish,
Do people in Japan confirm that this is true? I've never been there, but to me it doesn't seem to fit with what little I've seen of Japanese-made consumer goods for Japan.
 

DavidPF

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Or I like the fact that they look a long way from perfect because I will probably eff up the look at some point, and I won't need to worry because rustic.
There's nothing wrong with that, is there? A rustic-type finish on an area that's going to get scratched up anyway? Why not? It's not everyone's preference, but either way is good.
 

Koop

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Post #43 - "I dont like that and I dont like the implications of a person coming on a forum mostly about Japanese knives and telling people to google wabi sabi."

I don't think I told anyone to Google Wabi-Sabi. I did include a link - if that offended you, I suggest you move on and find another thread to be offended by. In post #4 you suggest banning the word!

Also, in post #14 I mention the notion that this concept may explain why TF gets fewer complaints in his home market. I don't know this for fact, but I've read this several times from people that seem to be in the know.
 
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nwshull

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Do people in Japan confirm that this is true? I've never been there, but to me it doesn't seem to fit with what little I've seen of Japanese-made consumer goods for Japan.
From my albiet limited experience in Japanese home kitchens, yes. It is a similar case with a lot of their woodworking tools, which is a much older consumer market for blacksmithed goods.

But more importantly, I think we're forgetting for the upper middle class and upper class that typically can afford to spend 500 bucks on knives, cooking for yourself is a fairly recent phenomena, possibly more so in Japan. Having a decked out equipped kitchen and cooking in it is a later 20th early 21st century status symbol. Knife smiths and manufacturers before that were catering to restaurants and out of site out of mind help in a lot of cases before that. Not a lot of people care about mirror polishing the spine when they aren't the ones using the knife.
 

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