TF Wabi-Sabi

[Benuser]

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Starting the process of learning for myself. After some use I’ll have an opinion about my TF’s. I’m looking for a Denka Gyuto to add as well so I will have used a cross section of TF’s. Then and only then will I feel confident to state my opinion on the knives. Even then my opinion is only MY opinion. Others may see it differently and that’s great too. IMO exchanging ideas is the true value of KKF.

More precisely, exchanging experience. It may take some time before you get used to a new knife, especially if it is one with a strong own character. First use, adapting without being aware of it your grip and technique, sharpening and touching up a few times. Let me speak for myself: it often takes quite some time before I can call a knife mine. As with a lot of things in life, the first impression is wrong, or at least incomplete. It says more about what you are used to than about what you're actually handling. Give it a fair chance.

 

[user 16756]

More precisely, exchanging experience. It may take some time before you get used to a new knife, especially if it is one with a strong own character. First use, adapting without being aware of it your grip and technique, sharpening and touching up a few times. Let me speak for myself: it often takes quite some time before I can call a knife mine. As with a lot of things in life, the first impression is wrong, or at least incomplete. It says more about what you are used to than about what you're actually handling. Give it a fair chance.

100x this.

a review of anything someone just pulled out of the box an hour ago is useless; live with a new toy for a while, get over the preconceptions and the honeymoon and think about it.

 

[nyc]

A TF will always be “problematic” if one is expecting a high level of finishing. And if one expects that, then they are barking up the wrong tree. TFs look the way they do because the makers view the kitchen knife as a tool (which is what it is). TF owners get this, while a good proportion of buyers/collectors seem unable to wrap their heads around this idea of the knife as a tool. Possibly, this could be because some still hang onto the notion that kitchen cutlery must be reflective of the artisanal aspects of sword making.
@DitmasPork was spot on when he said (more than once) that TFs aren’t for everyone. For me, I only ever ask two questions when it comes to knives: how sharp and how long does it last? Because personally, the only things I prize is sharpness and it’s retention. And TF is uncompromising in offering these two things. As an aside, here’s my latest Denka that arrived just 3 days ago. Ugly isn’t it? Ridden with “issues”.

 

[Corradobrit1]

A TF will always be “problematic” if one is expecting a high level of finishing. And if one expects that, then they are barking up the wrong tree. TFs look the way they do because the makers view the kitchen knife as a tool (which is what it is). TF owners get this, while a good proportion of buyers/collectors seem unable to wrap their heads around this idea of the knife as a tool. Possibly, this could be because some still hang onto the notion that kitchen cutlery must be reflective of the artisanal aspects of sword making.
@DitmasPork was spot on when he said (more than once) that TFs aren’t for everyone. For me, I only ever ask two questions when it comes to knives: how sharp and how long does it last? Because personally, the only things I prize is sharpness and it’s retention. And TF is uncompromising in offering these two things. As an aside, here’s my latest Denka that arrived just 3 days ago. Ugly isn’t it? Ridden with “issues”.

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Did you ask them ease the spine?

 

[nyc]

Did you ask them ease the spine?

Nope, everything as is. I also don’t do any work on my knives irrespective of how they arrive.

 

[ModRQC]

Yeah and after losing once, I bet on that horse again. What folly.

But hey, wait... it was no bad horse, in fact it repaid my full investment, which is more than I could say of... just about any other horse so far. So am not rooting to cover losses - there is no loss. Not betting again because I don't get the race - I just missed the damn horse!

I'm not claiming all you've read was a lie. It was a story - only the state of the knife standing true to the story, if presented in details enough to observe it. Then again, presented by who, knowing what, driven under which circumstances?

So far I didn't manage to cut anything with either words or pictures. It takes a knife to do that. So instead of getting on your high horses, almost suggesting there is a conspiracy as to hush bad TF units as you are, just take a breath and realize it does you no good, amounts to no getting closer to the thing, to even participate in deep in such a conversation.

 

[Etsoh]

In the end of the day, they're just knives guys!!!

 

[ModRQC]

In the end of the day, they're just knives guys!!!

But what about the morning after?

If they were just knives, than it's a rather weird place to subscribe to, is it? It's rather weird that Katos and Shigs sell and resell at their usual upgoing prices. And I am not particularly pumped out, on the contrary, once again rather amused. It's just that reading someone that has read something and from there basically says all those owning TFs have been had without admitting to the truth, while supposing they're making whatever he's read into a lie... rather seems nonsensical to me to say the very, very least.

A hat without a head is all there is to it. A borrowed hat, on top of nothing.

 

[Corradobrit1]

In the end of the day, they're just knives guys!!!

 

[Etsoh]

But what about the morning after?

If they were just knives, than it's a rather weird place to subscribe to, is it? It's rather weird that Katos and Shigs sell and resell at their usual upgoing prices. And I am not particularly pumped out, on the contrary, once again rather amused. It's just that reading someone that has read something and from there basically says all those owning TFs have been had without admitting to the truth, while supposing they're making whatever he's read into a lie... rather seems nonsensical to me to say the very, very least.

A hat without a head is all there is to it. A borrowed hat, on top of nothing.

I'm subscribed to here mainly for the bst really lol. I just read these kinds of threads to see how many people get themselves into a bunch. Like honestly, it's just a knife at the end of the day. Prices are determined by the consumers imo. I own a mab and I've put in work to get it the way I want it, Wabi sabi or whatever. Everyone's got a way they like to float their goats I guess. I can get by with a cheap victorinox at work, but I like the fact that a probably angry Japanese man who doesn't really care all that much compared to how much people care on the forums do made my knife

 

[Etsoh]

But what about the morning after?

If they were just knives, than it's a rather weird place to subscribe to, is it? It's rather weird that Katos and Shigs sell and resell at their usual upgoing prices. And I am not particularly pumped out, on the contrary, once again rather amused. It's just that reading someone that has read something and from there basically says all those owning TFs have been had without admitting to the truth, while supposing they're making whatever he's read into a lie... rather seems nonsensical to me to say the very, very least.

A hat without a head is all there is to it. A borrowed hat, on top of nothing.

Also kinda makes me wonder if people that spend upwards of 800 or more on a knife actually use it regularly or just to collect. I like nice looking knives and all but spending a large sum of cash for a blade isn't really something I'm into lol. Then again, if I spent 1000 on a knife, I definitely won't bring it to work, but then what was the point of buying a knife

 

[big_adventure]

There is something I've noticed in some of the TF threads: TF defenders arrive with shields up and weapons hot.

The point that it is "unacceptable to sell 800 dollar knives with inconsistent grinds and screwed up HT" is valid, even if the person stating it hasn't used one, even if the person hearing it doesn't agree with it, and it isn't even an attack on what TF does well. TF defenders, however, seem to take it as personally insulting and come up with elaborate comparisons to effectively personally insult the people they see as attacking them. But a comment that is negative on what TF legitimately has a rep for not really caring about isn't a personal insult on someone who likes TF knives.

Now, this is totally apart from the fact that TF sells and sells well. 1970's Jag E-types sold, and they were hot flaming garbage in most aspects of car ownership. People are willing to do that for things they love, even if other people don't necessarily agree with those points.

Some of the points that get brought up:

1. Artisan knives have variance. Yes, this is absolutely true. However, for whatever reason, TF is basically the only high-end maker who gets away with that level of variance. Shig, Kato, Konosuke, Sukenari, Takada, etc. don't do this to their customers. A couple of them could probably (any Shig, any Kaiju, will sell for whatever price someone slaps on them), but none of them do. When they stamp their kanji into the blade, they are saying "my name is worth something." And I've never heard of a single TF-level horror story about any of those. TF... doesn't mean that or care about that.

2. TF knives aren't for everyone. This is a classic BS-dump in debate tactics. It's a way of denigrating a valid point (TF knives have inconsistencies) based on a point that can't be proven, doesn't exist or verges on belief over observation. Someone who loves TF knives and has 10 of them shouldn't feel the need to feel defensive about their choices to people on the Internet in any way that requires that kind of argument, at least, that's my opinion.

3. The sales point above: the idea that the problems don't exist or don't "matter" because TF sells well and for very high prices. I address that above, somewhat, but let's just say that sales and practical value of an item aren't necessarily at all correlated.

Points that I've never seen anyone argue against:

1. TF knives, at least ones that don't have a horrifying defect out of the box, are spectacular cutters.

2. TF Denkas, at least ones that don't have a horrifying defect out of the box, are spectacular sellers as well. If you care about resale (and frankly, I don't at all, I'll never sell one of my blades), Denkas are perfect.

DavidPF's point is absolutely as valid as anyone else's, despite him never having owned a TF.

This is so tl;dr already. But...

If I'm ever again in Tokyo, I will absolutely go to the shop, handle some Denkas if I can, and, if I find one that's well made, buy it and bring it home. Too many people who know more than I do about knives and who have experienced many more knives than I have speak too highly of them for me not to do that. OTOH, there is no way in hell I'd buy one from a random vendor on the Internet, simply because the horror stories are far too prevalent to not have some basis in reality.

 

[Carl Kotte]

Hey @big_adventure I might actually have a TF for you. It’s veeeeeery expensive. But on the upside it’s straight (now!), and once you buy it you open up the door to legitimately criticising TF. No one can take the close encounter experience away from you. Think of the possibilities?!

 

[Garm]

Until you've personally carefully examined and used at least hundreds of his knives (thousands would be better), you have a less accurate point of view than someone who has never seen one but has read a lot of reports and reviews.

I'm really trying hard to understand what you're saying here.
If I buy a knife or three from a maker, based on mentions, reviews and reports from other users' personal experience with knives from that maker, use them for a given amount of time in my own kitchen, then how accurate would my point of view of the knives I bought be?
What about each of the reviews and opinions that led me to my purchase, the same ones you've read? How many knives from that maker would they have had to use for their opinions and reviews of their own knives to be valid?
The people who buy knives from a certain maker, at least members of this forum, have most likely read just as many opinions, reports, and reviews as you have.
Perhaps I'm completely misunderstanding what you're trying to say.

 

[big_adventure]

Hey @big_adventure I might actually have a TF for you. It’s veeeeeery expensive. But on the upside it’s straight (now!), and once you buy it you open up the door to legitimately criticising TF. No one can take the close encounter experience away from you. Think of the possibilities?!

My kids are asking why I won't stop smiling an laughing now. They already thought I was crazy, but this confirms it. Thanks. Thanks a lot.

Just elaborating on my points above - I'm not actually criticizing TF, TF lovers or TF haters. I'm more or less standing on the middle ground. I would love a 240 Denka. Given the person I am, I'm relatively sure I'll have one someday. I may or may not love it, may or may not think it's good or bad, but I'll wait to judge until I've got it in my hands. It's just that I will absolutely not buy it sight unseen (or mostly unseen), based on the myriad reports that exist of terrifyingly bad QC. Would TF send out a Denka with screwed up HT? Sure! With a critically bad overgrind? Absolutely! With a screwed up photo on the box? Whoa, whoa, whoa - let's not get crazy. /s

 

[Bear]

I've been reading though this thread with just one question, after criticizing these knives before trying how many have changed there minds after they have given them a shot, maybe even after spending three days grinding, polishing and bending back.

 

[Midsummer]

I'm really trying hard to understand what you're saying here.
If I buy a knife or three from a maker, based on mentions, reviews and reports from other users' personal experience with knives from that maker, use them for a given amount of time in my own kitchen, then how accurate would my point of view of the knives I bought be?
What about each of the reviews and opinions that led me to my purchase, the same ones you've read? How many knives from that maker would they have had to use for their opinions and reviews of their own knives to be valid?
The people who buy knives from a certain maker, at least members of this forum, have most likely read just as many opinions, reports, and reviews as you have.
Perhaps I'm completely misunderstanding what you're trying to say.

I was thinking the same thing. Particularly the "The people who buy knives from a certain maker, at least members of this forum, have most likely read just as many opinions, reports, and reviews as you have." portion. And I thought maybe those members may have read even more.

I have found that making a commitment to spend hard earned cash will make me extra diligent. I thought most were like that.

 

[DitmasPork]

But what about the morning after?

If they were just knives, than it's a rather weird place to subscribe to, is it? It's rather weird that Katos and Shigs sell and resell at their usual upgoing prices. And I am not particularly pumped out, on the contrary, once again rather amused. It's just that reading someone that has read something and from there basically says all those owning TFs have been had without admitting to the truth, while supposing they're making whatever he's read into a lie... rather seems nonsensical to me to say the very, very least.

A hat without a head is all there is to it. A borrowed hat, on top of nothing.

Just knives, just tools. They can also be beautifully crafted, fashionable piece of kitchen bling; inspirational high-performance knives; a piece of history by an iconic and important Japanese knife maker. Air Jordans are just shoes.

Do you own or have tried a TF denka? Honest question.

Denkas have a vocal cult following for good reason—they’re very good gyutos. Visually, denkas almost as recognizable as Nenox bone handled chef’s knives.

It baffles me why there’s a fixation, an obsessiveness with TF denkas being over-priced. There’re not a bang-for-buck knife, value shoppers need look elsewhere. I’ve no issues with TF prices, his stature as a maker justifies the price, he’s earned it—denkas are also distinctive, high-performance knives.

TF has been in business long enough to understand needs of his clientele—the best performing knife they’re capable of making, albeit a rather utilitarian standard of f&f. Do one needs a denka—it’s a luxury item (as with any +$500 gyuto); owning a denka a privilege, not a right or entitlement. If denkas cost $300 and everyone had one, I’d probably pass on them. However, denkas are one of my best performing gyutos.

Great thing about buying gyutos these days is being spoilt for choices. Many options for nearly all budgets. Most denka buyers I know, understand what they’re about.

 

[btbyrd]

I've been reading though this thread with just one question, after criticizing these knives before trying how many have changed there minds after they have given them a shot, maybe even after spending three days grinding, polishing and bending back.

I don't understand the question. Isn't the thing that people complain about the fact that TF knives might require three days of grind-fixing and straghtening and possible rehandling? I don't think anyone complains that these knives don't cut well or don't have exceptional steel. They complain of inconsistencies in manufacturing in the form of overgrinds, non-straight blades, and janky western handles. They complain of buying a $900 project knife that has worse fit and finish than a $90 Tojiro. And they complain of the 240 gyuto costing way more than the 210 for no reason. I can't imagine that someone who criticized Denkas, but then bought one that had to be fixed, would somehow magically regard his original complaints as ungrounded or ill-founded after confirming that the knives cut well and sharpen beautifully.

 

[GorillaGrunt]

I dunno, I've got a Masakage Kujira that i wanted for a year or two before i finally was able to get one. At the time it was one of the most expensive knives I had bought and $500 for a 210 is still a lot. There's a little spot where a piece of the cladding fell out. It was ground fat and convex like a sword; iirc i said i thought at first it was like a good Takeda but it turned out to be more like a bad Takeda. Then i thinned it out, spent a few days on it, plus some more time polishing and it still doesn't look like how it should; definitely remember thinking to myself a few times "wth, i bought this for this much and now have to do all this BS?" But once i got it right it's a real pleasure to use all day, one of my favorite 210s, people still think it looks awesome. Which is good because given the aforementioned issues the resale value would be much less than a comparable TF. Otoh, nobody is going on about how Kagaeura is the greatest smith and Kujiras are the greatest knives...

Also I'm at a spot where I consider knives as things to be continually worked on and maintained and adjusted; if i wanted to pull it out of the box and go it might be a different story. And to be fair, any other consumer good or piece of equipment at a comparable percentile price range, I'd expect it to not need any of that.

 

[DitmasPork]

Wabi-sabi roll call. When seeking that wonderful, characteristic handmadeness—gotta accept the inherent imperfections, unpredictable nature of the artisans hands and humanness of technique.
FWIW, pretty much all denka owners I know have found them to work fine straight outta the box—low spots ain’t an issue unless obsessed about sharpening a perfect blade road; wonky, rough handle work doesn’t affect how a knife cuts, if it does, then get used to it, or sell it.
In the grand scheme of things, $850 for a 240 denka not an exorbitant price—many a knife enthusiasts have blown considerably more than that blowing money acquiring piles of lesser, bang-for-buck gyutos.
Jiro is another maker that receives a lot of complaints at being overpriced, but mine was worth every penny. Beautiful and a great performer.

 

[WiriWiri]

The Jiro comparison seems a bit instructive if anything. Jiro seems to do everything himself, with an apparent history of diligently studying with other craftsmen to try and better his work. His calligraphy and engraving alone give a much greater sense of care and personal involvement with his knives, whilst he continually seems to be be attempting to improve his product - new (not to tinkered around with) finishes more recently for example.

The same, charitably, can’t be said of TF, as the same issues seem to have been flying about since I was a veritable J-knife nipper. Overblown or not, too many good people have had bad experiences for me to ignore every report.

I like my TF Mabs and suspect I would really like a Denka. However I‘ve put the decision off for the best part of a decade, not because I’m hugely angry or animated about TF, but perhaps more because I can‘t help feeling the nagging feeling that there may be other makers out there who may be slightly more deserving.

 

[Barmoley]

My kids are asking why I won't stop smiling an laughing now. They already thought I was crazy, but this confirms it. Thanks. Thanks a lot.

Just elaborating on my points above - I'm not actually criticizing TF, TF lovers or TF haters. I'm more or less standing on the middle ground. I would love a 240 Denka. Given the person I am, I'm relatively sure I'll have one someday. I may or may not love it, may or may not think it's good or bad, but I'll wait to judge until I've got it in my hands. It's just that I will absolutely not buy it sight unseen (or mostly unseen), based on the myriad reports that exist of terrifyingly bad QC. Would TF send out a Denka with screwed up HT? Sure! With a critically bad overgrind? Absolutely! With a screwed up photo on the box? Whoa, whoa, whoa - let's not get crazy. /s

I try to stay away from TF discussions because there is no rhyme or reason to them in most cases. I stepped into this one because I am just tired of some people, even some I respect very much mentioning how crappy and overpriced TFs are in threads even unrelated to TF at all. It is done in a matter of fact passing by comment usually. In a style of "oh you got a bad knife, sucks, but at least it is not as bad as TF" or "well that's expensive, but at least not as overpriced as TF". The threads usually have nothing to do with TF, noone asked about it. Some of these people have been burnt, some read something somewhere. Your response is a perfect example of what bugs me. Twice now you've said that TFs might come with terrifyingly bad QC that there are mirriads of bad reports of this and that Denka's might come with bad HT. On the internet when you repeat something enough times it seems to become true. I've never heard of a badly heat treated Denka, I am sure they exist, but this is one of the main things they are famous for excellent heat treat of blue super and white 1. Now that you wrote it though some new members will read your posts in a year or two, see that you are a respected, long term member and think. This guy said denkas come with bad HT and mirriads of other problems he must know something since he clearly knows what he is talking about... You see this is the problem. I am not picking on you specifically or trying to be mean and rude, but the reality is you don't know what you are talking about on this particular topic. You are using hyperbole to make your point, but you are doing a disservice to the community. We seem to have this notion that all opinions have equal value, but they don't. My opinion on cooking can't be as valuable as a pro chefs, not even close. My opinion on sharpening or making knives is not as valuable as a maker's or pro sharpener's. It has some value if I have some experience, but it is nowhere close to their. Your opinion on TF can't be as valuable as someone's whom at least used one. You say you still want to buy one, this I don't get, according to you they are nothing but trouble and if you can check over grinds and such, heat treat is not something you can check at the store.

It is just tiresome to read TF bashing in unrelated threads, especially by people that have never seen one or used one just because they read the same account repeated a million times and now believe that they know what they are talking about. If you haven't used one please, please stop giving people advice on them.

 

[DitmasPork]

The Jiro comparison seems a bit instructive if anything. Jiro seems to do everything himself, with an apparent history of diligently studying with other craftsmen to try and better his work. His calligraphy and engraving alone give a much greater sense of care and personal involvement with his knives, whilst he continually seems to be be attempting to improve his product - new (not to tinkered around with) finishes more recently for example.

The same, charitably, can’t be said of TF, as the same issues seem to have been flying about since I was a veritable J-knife nipper. Overblown or not, too many good people have had bad experiences for me to ignore every report.

I like my TF Mabs and suspect I would really like a Denka. However I‘ve put the decision off for the best part of a decade, not because I’m hugely angry or animated about TF, but perhaps more because I can‘t help feeling the nagging feeling that there may be other makers out there who may be slightly more deserving.

Agree. Jiros packaging is exceptionally well designed, each specific to the numbered knife. End of day—for me at least—it’s just packaging, buried amongst the pile of other, more generic boxes gathering dust.

Raquin by contrast, comes wrapped in paper—albeit with a branded towel and brrrrap biscuit.

Really depends on what one wants. A couple of years ago I commissioned a Kippington work pony gyuto for about half the cost of a 240 denka—much contact and chatting with Kip about what I envisioned for the knife—a different experience altogether.

I dig the diversity of the market. Sometimes I love chasing a custom; others times the relaxed action of buying off-the-shelf. Some makers are known for superb f&f; ht; fancy handles; exotic steels; whatever.

My advice to anyone who thinks TF is overpriced, or a QC gamble—is not to get one. That said, I have some knives with perfect f&f and beautiful handles, that I rarely use, and don’t perform half as well as my denka. I’ve no doubt that there’re bad denkas out there tho.

 

[DitmasPork]

I try to stay away from TF discussions because there is no rhyme or reason to them in most cases. I stepped into this one because I am just tired of some people, even some I respect very much mentioning how crappy and overpriced TFs are in threads even unrelated to TF at all. It is done in a matter of fact passing by comment usually. In a style of "oh you got a bad knife, sucks, but at least it is not as bad as TF" or "well that's expensive, but at least not as overpriced as TF". The threads usually have nothing to do with TF, noone asked about it. Some of these people have been burnt, some read something somewhere. Your response is a perfect example of what bugs me. Twice now you've said that TFs might come with terrifyingly bad QC that there are mirriads of bad reports of this and that Denka's might come with bad HT. On the internet when you repeat something enough times it seems to become true. I've never heard of a badly heat treated Denka, I am sure they exist, but this is one of the main things they are famous for excellent heat treat of blue super and white 1. Now that you wrote it though some new members will read your posts in a year or two, see that you are a respected, long term member and think. This guy said denkas come with bad HT and mirriads of other problems he must know something since he clearly knows what he is talking about... You see this is the problem. I am not picking on you specifically or trying to be mean and rude, but the reality is you don't know what you are talking about on this particular topic. You are using hyperbole to make your point, but you are doing a disservice to the community. We seem to have this notion that all opinions have equal value, but they don't. My opinion on cooking can't be as valuable as a pro chefs, not even close. My opinion on sharpening or making knives is not as valuable as a maker's or pro sharpener's. It has some value if I have some experience, but it is nowhere close to their. Your opinion on TF can't be as valuable as someone's whom at least used one. You say you still want to buy one, this I don't get, according to you they are nothing but trouble and if you can check over grinds and such, heat treat is not something you can check at the store.

It is just tiresome to read TF bashing in unrelated threads, especially by people that have never seen one or used one just because they read the same account repeated a million times and now believe that they know what they are talking about. If you haven't used one please, please stop giving people advice on them.

Hahahahaha! You try to stay away from TF discussions? Don’t stay away, you’re such a good, reasonable voice IMO!

 

[MowgFace]

In the grand scheme of things, $850 for a 240 denka not an exorbitant price—many a knife enthusiasts have blown considerably more than that blowing money acquiring piles of lesser, bang-for-buck gyutos.

HAHA. Shots fired. 100% guilty of this.

 

[Bear]

" I can't imagine that someone who criticized Denkas, but then bought one that had to be fixed, would somehow magically regard his original complaints as ungrounded or ill-founded after confirming that the knives cut well and sharpen beautifully.

Not ungrounded or ill-founded definitely valid, but there is something special about the steel, it does have a unique feeling. If not for the fact that I did get a decent deal on my Denka I would not have ever tried it, that was my condition going into it and the choice that I made, it's not like I didn't know what I was getting into. I wouldn't call myself a big fanboy but it was a good decision.

 

[Bigbbaillie]

I don't understand why there is so much polarization on this forum about this maker in particular. So many of the same complaints being repeated over and over by people who have experienced some bad apples or just heard about it. Personally I've never owned a TF, however I do believe there has to be a reason they command the prices they do. Yea it might be driven by hype, but we aren't talking about Supreme here. Plenty of people love their TF's for plenty of reasons, "wabi-sabi" maybe being one, the character, the notch, the heat treat etc... Just because other people don't appreciate those qualities as much does not mean it's not worth it to another person.
Even if you do need to put work in on the knife grinding down bevels or doing 10 minutes of sanding on choil/spine, I personally don't see that as a huge deal. It might seem silly to others who don't like working on knives but I think to a lot of people, that is part of the charm of this hobby. I personally like working on knives and being able to feel like I can add to the performance/aesthetics of a knife. If anything it's pointless to do work on really cheap knives. I don't want to spend 10 hours grinding down a bevel on a cheap stainless knife that I'm never going to use but spend that time on a nicer knife and you have something you can really be proud of.
I don't even know if I would ever want a TF, but I really think it's hard to put objective value on a knife. Some people are going to be happiest with a Kiwi, and others with a Denka or Honyaki. If anything I think it would be easier to argue that it's completely ridiculous to spend over $200-$300 on a knife PERIOD. At least if you are going to judge based on quantifiable differences alone. Although I don't think many on this forum, including myself, really care about that...

 

[user 16756]

Even if you do need to put work in on the knife grinding down bevels or doing 10 minutes of sanding on choil/spine, I personally don't see that as a huge deal. It might seem silly to others who don't like working on knives but I think to a lot of people, that is part of the charm of this hobby. I personally like working on knives and being able to feel like I can add to the performance/aesthetics of a knife.

in general the premise is that you are supposed to be paying progressively more money for progressively more attention to detail. ie to command a high price those things should be done since you are, in theory anyway, paying for the labor and experience of the maker more than the materials unless the material in questions has some sort of huge associated cost (i.e. super high wear resistant steels dont only take longer to grind they chew up equipment). I suppose you can add into that scarcity, though by looking at TF stocks, they dont seem anything like as scarce as a Kato or Shig

if people want to argue that TF has some ability that is unique to him, that's fine.

Im happy to work on a knife but my expectations for how much Im willing to do are contingent on the price of the knife in question. on a 250 dollar knife if I have to do some bevel work it's nbd, on a 500 dollar knife Im unhappy and above that Im not into it. but that's just me I cant tell anyone else how to value that stuff.

I do think it's valid to point out that there are alternatives, however. I have largely the same opinion about all of the very hyped up knives; there are too many equivalently good options to justify paying huge prices on a gyuto that isnt bringing something immensely labor-intensive to the party, e.g. Honyakis, crazy finishes, rare steels, etc. JMO.

 

[Corradobrit1]

The Jiro comparison seems a bit instructive if anything. Jiro seems to do everything himself, with an apparent history of diligently studying with other craftsmen to try and better his work. His calligraphy and engraving alone give a much greater sense of care and personal involvement with his knives, whilst he continually seems to be be attempting to improve his product - new (not to tinkered around with) finishes more recently for example.

The same, charitably, can’t be said of TF, as the same issues seem to have been flying about since I was a veritable J-knife nipper. Overblown or not, too many good people have had bad experiences for me to ignore every report.

I like my TF Mabs and suspect I would really like a Denka. However I‘ve put the decision off for the best part of a decade, not because I’m hugely angry or animated about TF, but perhaps more because I can‘t help feeling the nagging feeling that there may be other makers out there who may be slightly more deserving.

Jiro is a completely different market. TF is high volume in comparison to Jiro's output. And he works with W#1 so HT prowess is not a fair comparison with similarly priced SS clad Denka. Plus Jiro's knives are brutes, in the nicest possible sense. If you don't like heavy knives you're SOL.