The 5000th stone recommendation thread

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sansho

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time for some serious rambling...

I'm doing something wrong. I dulled a Wusthof and put it on the JKI 1K until burrs etc. and then the 8K. Couldn't get it sharp. Took it to the SGs and sharp in minutes. I'll try again soon. Obviously pilot error, but any tips/quirks working with these stones?
you mean the JKI 1k diamond right? from the 1k+6k set?

i used my jki 1k+6k diamond set once so far. didn't have a great experience with it, but i kind of suck at sharpening, and i was very tired. sharpening doesn't go well for me when i'm tired. i think i get too impatient.

take everything i say here with a grain of salt. these are just initial impressions.

what i received actually appeared to be the 1k and the 6k stones rather than the set. guessing they were out of the sets or something. this means i received an extra stone holder (2 instead of 1), which is nice.

i wrote 1k and 6k with a sharpie on the respective naguras that were included because they felt a little different and didn't want to mix them up.

the 1k and 6k stones are labeled on their sides, but i can't easily tell them apart from above which is kind of annoying. i think i'm going to wrap one of the stone holders with blue masking tape. i actually got 1k and 6k mixed up in the middle of sharpening which was very frustrating. haha. i mentioned i was tired, right?

ok so moving on to actual performance...

jki 1k diamond:
i thought the feedback was actually pretty good. i was expecting a lot worse, but this was fine. i probably would not have felt that i was missing anything in terms of feel had i not used my jki 2k ceramic soaker the next day. the 2k soaker feels superior.
cutting speed on the 1k diamond seemed fine, but surprisingly not really different than the 2k soaker? i was expecting it to be faster.
i enjoyed what i would term "convenience features". no flattening, no soaking, and less mess due to minimal amount of "mud" generated.
i got a usable edge out of it, but maybe not refined enough to end on. the jki 2k soaker on the other hand seems fine to end on.

jki 6k diamond:
in my original post, i said i didn't know how to effectively use my 6k ceramic soaker. same with this so far. i tried finishing on it (to the point of removing most visible 1k scratches), but it either refined it too much, or i suck at sharpening and just rolled the edge over or something. it cut vegetables (tomatoes in particular) noticeably worse than 1k diamond edge. also, i noticed loading on it, but that's because i thought it was the 1k stone for a while (i mixed them up because they look so similar). the nagura refreshed the surface easily though.

my current jki ceramic soaker workflow is:
  • sharpen on my 2k (or start with 400 if there are major issues). mostly edge-trailing. decreasing pressure as i go back and forth as taught in the Peter Nowlan's Knife Planet page. and after several rounds of that, i deburr by drawing across a rubber wine cork.
  • after cork deburr, i only do gentle edge-leading 'stropping' motions. i do this on the 2k.
  • as for the jki 6k (6000S) ceramic soaker.. i think i'm finally understanding a way to use it that works for me. like i said, i didn't find any use whatsoever for it before because i was either rolling the edge (my fault), or the edge was too refined. dunno.
    • even though it comes with a nagura, i don't like the rough texture it leaves on the stone. similarly, i don't like how it is fresh off the stone fixer (flattener). so i get it flat and then rub my jki 2k ceramic soaker on there to smooth it out some.
    • once smooth and flat, i just do a few gentle, edge-leading strop strokes on there. not removing all the previous scratches and bite. not totally polishing the primary (edge) bevel. i've read some people refer to this lightly refined edge as a "hybrid edge" (but hybrid edge can refer to other things too).
back to the new diamond stones...
what i really need to do now is patiently try 1k -> 6k diamond again when i'm rested. i'll try a 'hybrid edge' with the 6k and see how that performs. if it works well, then i'll try more strokes to polish the primary bevel. people say that this 6k stone has enough bite, so i want to see if that's the case. but if it no longer cuts tomatoes after that, then i'll try tests on paper. if it no longer cleanly cuts paper, i can probably assume i just suck at sharpening (rolled the edge).
 
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The 1k Diamond is used for general sharpening. Originally I bought the 1k to be used on the high HRC steels. Sharpening on my normal stones with these steels was just too slow. Generally I used a Chosera 800 for general sharpening. The JKI 1000 is just better in all respects. I use the 6K stone for finishing. It refines the edge left by the 1k and leaves a nice tooth on the edge. It actually replaces a 2k or 3k stone that I used before. Then1K-6K JKI combination is just a quick, easy and effective two stone way to achieve an excellent edge for general kitchen use. Since they arrived my other stones don’t get much use and they are indispensable for high HRC steels imo.

Sorry, but I can’t give you a blow by blow description of what I do. Provided repairs aren’t required I just sharpen on the 1k stone until the blade is sharp. I deburr using edge trailing or leading strokes as required then move to the 6000, raise a micro burr and deburr. Generally I’ll finish off on a leather strop for a few strokes and that’s about it. I’ve been doing it for so long that I really don’t think about it.
 
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sansho

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I use the 6K stone for finishing. It refines the edge left by the 1k and leaves a nice tooth on the edge. It actually replaces a 2k or 3k stone that I used before.
can you please describe how you use the 6k?
for example, do you work it enough to polish away most of the 1k scratches on the edge bevel?
do you just give it a few light "strops"?
 
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I guess I do polish off the 1k scratches. When I go to the 6K I use it just like the 1k … I raise a very small micro burr … barely detectable … the same on the other side then deburr on the 6K with very light edge trailing strokes … maybe four strokes. Sometimes with some steels I’ll actually throw in one or two edge leading strokes to deburr a stubborn edge. VERY light pressure when I do. I run the edge across my fingernail and stop when I’m happy. I will then generally strop on a loaded leather strop followed by just plain leather because it sounds so nice when I test it on telephone book paper. What I do like with the 6K JKI stone is that there will still be a nice “tooth” left on the edge even after the stropping.
 

sansho

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cool. i just took my time and sharpened a shirogami gyuto on the 1k+6k diamond set.

i made sure to spend some time on the 6k. not just a few strops. i wanted to be sure i got a good representation of how much bite the 6k leaves.

the edge is great. one of the best edges i've gotten. certainly comparable to jki 2k soaker + light stropping on 6k soaker.

it passes my tests:
  • push-cuts printer paper. pure forward push cut motion (little to no 'slicing' motion i.e. not thrust cutting).
  • slices through tomato skin with minimal resistance. the weight of the knife is plenty to get through without hesitation in a draw or thrust cut.
basic tests, but it gets me were i want to be. maybe someday i'll start with these hanging hair tests, but i think i'm not close enough yet in skill to bother with it.

i'm certainly happy with this as my second set and will bring it to my other place next time i'm there. thanks guys.

i think i want to add a jki 4k or synth nat to my soaker set though. and an atoma 140 for flattening.
 
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Actuallly I don’t use the supplied nagura’s. I clean all my stones with a large rust eraser that I picked up. Works great and I use it whenever there is an accumulation (dark streak) in the middle of the stone. At least once per sharpening session. Whenever I sharpen it sits soaking in my stone pond. A few swipes is all it takes.
 

sansho

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that seems about right. i notice they do get dark and feel loaded up. more smooth, less feedback. no clue if it was actually cutting slower, but i didn't like how it felt on steel. i just gently and briefly ran the nagura over it, and it was good as new. i'll try a rust eraser for fun next time.
 

ian

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have you tried the synth nat? just curious. both sound pretty good as finishers.
I’ve tried it, and liked it, but apparently I didn’t try it correctly, as you’re supposed to permasoak it for best results. I’m sure it’s a great stone too. The 4k is just my default finisher for basically all carbon gyutos.
 
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Sounds like you've figured it out. Two mistakes I've made before were to spend too much time on the 6k and not deburring enough on the 1k. The edge should be sharp and burr free when you are done with 1k. If it is not and you try to correct 1k issues on 6k that usually doesn't work well. I don't spend much time on 6k it is used to refine the edge so I basically do what Brian does. There are no hard rules though and as long as your edge is sharp and burr free how you get there is less important. I used nagura whenever I felt that the stones loaded up and became slower.

Between the natural synthetic and 4k gesshin I preferred 4k, it is one of the best edge finishers for kitchen knives in my experience. I don't use it anymore though since I wanted to make my life easier, so only use vitrified diamond stones now.
 
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J_Wisdom

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I just received my first MTC Kitchen shipment of Shapton glass stones and sharpening stone holder. Haven't used them yet, but I feel compelled to say what a great packaging job MTC did. It took a long time to receive, but they stated that upfront all over the website, so I knew ahead of time. Won't have time to do anything with them today, but from I can see, I'm very happy. That stone holder is SOLID, and there is no movement on the stone in there. Earlier this week I ordered a 3k and 8k that I'll see towards the end of the month. I'm unsure if the 8k is worth it for me, but I like the finish I can get with my Yoshihiro 8k.
 

sansho

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I went a little crazy with the MTC SG sale (went back twice!) and I don't regret a cent, including those spent on the 8k. Congrats, they are awesome stones.
cool! not that i need them, but i'll probably still grab some SGs to play with. i just slacked too long, and if i order now, they'll probably arrive when i'm out of town. will probably get 500 double, 3k, and 4k to start with. and the field stone holder.

anyone have that field holder? i wonder how much less solid it feels compared to the regular one.

btw, if anyone missed out, don't feel bad. the mtc shapton sale was kind of a troll. it was 20% off across the board from what i saw, but you can still get that same discount by signing up to their newsletter. or pm me for the code. i just don't want to spam it everywhere and somehow motivate them to change it.

are you liking your jki diamond stones any more than before, @Greenbriel? or could you give an overview of the stuff you have and how you like it?

my overview is...
  • i still have the jki ceramic soakers (400, 2k, 6k). they are fun to sharpen on and give good results. the 6k i only really use for a few final edge leading strops to give a partially-polished ('hybrid') edge that still has a lot of tooth. i want to try a 4k and/or a synth nat.
  • i like these jki diamond stones. they don't feel quite as nice to sharpen on, but not bad at all. they are obviously more convenient. i love not flattening them, and they make a lot less mud and swarf. hence less messy. these will probably replace my soakers as my primary set. the point of this thread was originally to look for a second set for my other place, and i'll probably leave my soakers there now (permasoaked in a sealed container with a little bleach) and keep the diamonds here.
  • i also want a coarser stone like a SG 500 to keep with my jki diamonds for when i have to do more than touching up.
 

sansho

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i totally forgot to mention that the main sharpening breakthrough i've had since my original soaker set is stropping.

i just got a horse butt strop (smooth side of the leather) that i loaded with 1μ diamond spray. i got the spray from CKTG.
push cut feel and sound through paper is noticeably better after stropping with this. it also stays toothy, but i only do about 10 strops on each side. idk what happens if you keep going.

i like the idea of removing as little metal as possible, especially since i don't know how to thin knives. the strop seems to do a good job refreshing an edge periodically. and when that stops working, i'll go back to what i was doing before which was edge-leading stropping on a stone.
 
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LOL I did notice that about the newsletter discount, but I think that's a one time deal so if you're already a customer and have used the code you'd still want to get the sale price. I apologize that I didn't reply to your great JKI write up earlier, I've been swamped and about to fly to England for three weeks (yay, Omicron!) so I haven't even had time to mess with them any further.

I'm definitely going to put in some time with them when I get back, but right now I'm feeling like someone might get a nice BTS deal in the new year. I just get such great results with the SGs. But too early to tell, and some people around here who I respect and know more than I speak highly of them, but we'll see.

I'm going to give my soakers away, can't see going back after S&G convenience. The SG500 is a champ, understandably seen as the darling of the lineup by some members. I think I posted before, but I ended up getting the 220, 500DT, 1000, 2000, 4000, 8000.

I got an Atoma 140 too (Amazon was sadly cheaper than MTC), that's a great thing to have.

Cheers!
 
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i totally forgot to mention that the main sharpening breakthrough i've had since my original soaker set is stropping.
Hah, I am literally stropping on the CKTG magnetic 'roo strops prepping for dinner in between typing here. 😂

I've been stropping for a long time, it's a game changer, IMO.

I don't think much would happen if you went beyond 10 passes per side.

I think someone a few posts back was saying the field holder is great. Could've been another thread I'm following.
 
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Kawa

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Hah, I am literally stropping on the CKTG magnetic 'roo strops prepping for dinner in between typing here. 😂

I've been stropping for a long time, it's a game changer, IMO.

I don't think much would happen if you went beyond 10 passes per side.

I think someone a few posts back was saying the field holder is great. Could've been another thread I'm following.
Too much stropping might overpolish the edge, loosing the bite.

1 micron is about 15000 gritt. Do that a lot and your edge becomes 15000 gritt.
 

Delat

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I love the Shapton field stone holder - it’s super nice to drop stones in and out without messing with screws or springs. I was considering cheaper universal holders but I’m really happy I spent the few extra bucks. I do my sharpening on a rubber mat and everything stays put just fine. I don’t use a ton of pressure when sharpening, but I think even with more pressure it wouldn’t move. If you’re on a slippery surface it might be a different story though.
 
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I stand corrected. Thanks @Kawa. I'm probably overpolishing all my edges. Just really starting to get into the nitty gritty of polish vs. tooth.
It's not just over polishing it is very easy to round the apex with a strop. Only people with very fine control can get away with stropping alot. For the rest less is more.
 

tcmx3

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I have very mixed results with strops & compound and my general take is that the softer type that give are WAY more usable.

I got a harder one recently after my old one which was mounted on wood soaked up some water and one side exploded and I feel like Im gonna have to start playing CS deathmatch again.

I do prefer 1 micron diamond emulsion to the 2 micron CBN I was using by a lot though. the CBN was less aggressive and I sort of came to the conclusion that Id rather each swipe cut harder but I do less swipes. gotten some really good results as long as I pay a lot of attention and err on the side of my angle being too low.

btw Im just gonna add once you're spending >100 dollars on a finisher, you really ought to consider one of Jon's Oouchi or Hideriyama stones instead IMO. but then, that's just like, my opinion.
 

Kawa

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It's not just over polishing it is very easy to round the apex with a strop. Only people with very fine control can get away with stropping alot. For the rest less is more.
Isnt it both, to be fair?
A lot of compounds we use are also used to buff/polish metals; they are not developed specially for knife deburring.
Take a well used coin and rub it on your strop, it will get clean and very soon start to shine.


Apex rounding has more to do with the medium you strop on, right? A hard medium, like balsa has no 'give', so when you push too hard, the medium doesnt 'fold on' the edge. Folding on the edge is what rounds off the edge, not the amount of stropping per se. True?

So be very carefull (steady angle, not too much pressure) when stropping on fluffy suede for example. The more passes you do, the sooner or later you will make one of those two mistakes, rounding your edge.


I use very firm, compressed leather to strop. After about 6-7 strokes per side the results dont get better. The edge is clean, or I failed to debur properly on my stone.
If I continue however, the edge will start to shine a lot more.
 
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Apex rounding has more to do with the medium you strop on, right? A hard medium, like balsa has no 'give', so when you push too hard, the medium doesnt 'fold on' the edge. Folding on the edge is what rounds off the edge, not the amount of stropping per se. True?
A hanging strop would be the most likely thing to cause apex rounding assuming your technique is pretty good. Hanging strops are meant for razors where the spine and the edge are both in contact with the strop at all times preventing you from messing up the angle. I do use hanging style strops for knives sometimes but I don't use them hanging. I lay them on the counter. But leather isn't my favorite medium for knife strops. I prefer lots of other materials to leather. Newspaper, copy paper, cardboard, etc. Or cloth options like a kitchen rag, linen, denim, etc. Or a fine natural stone. I save my leather strops for razors for the most part. There's just so many better options for knives in my opinion.
 

J_Wisdom

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Does anyone use a nagura stone with the SG stones? I wondered about that today, because I used the SG 1k and 4k today on a couple different knives, mainly working my Yoshihiro ginsan usuba. These stones are great, although I didn't spend a lot of time working on it today. One thing the Yoshihiro 8k with the nagura does well is the finish on the knife, and I have my kenmuki pretty sharp using those.

One thing I really like about the SG is how well the water stays on it versus soaking it up like the Yoshihiro do. I don't have any stone comparisons yet, although I do have a Shapton 220 S&G that worked pretty well for my needs at the time. Basically removing a lot for a chip.
 
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