The Baking Thread: Q&A's, Tips, Equipment...Emotional Support

[Jovidah]

The way I get my loaves into the hot dutch oven is to place a piece of parchment paper onto a small cutting board, put that on top of the banneton, and then invert the banneton so the dough ends up sitting on top of the parchment paper. Now I can score and spray the dough. Then I use the parchment paper like a sling and lower the dough into the dutch oven. When the loaf is done, the parchment conveniently allows me to lift the bread out of the pot.

Yes this is exactly the same method I've been using... and why I won't be running out to buy that challenger pan anytime soon. It's not as convenient, but just lowering it in with paper isn't 200 bucks of inconvenience.

Here's a cheaper solution. Just flip it upside down and use the lid as the base. It's much safer and much easier to load:

https://smile.amazon.com/Lodge-L8DD3-Cast-Iron-Dutch/dp/B000LEXR0K/ref=sr_1_2?crid=3RB19XWJYJWL2&keywords=lodge+double+dutch+oven&qid=1675742910&sprefix=lodge+double,aps,84&sr=8-2

Yeah those were on my radar too. Would probably get one of those if they weren't a 100 bucks here. For some reason Lodge pans are relatively expensive here, probably because of the high shipping costs.

Le creuset has one that is round and smaller.
Emile Henry has also different models but are ceramic instead of cast iron.

Problem is that the Le Creuset costs as much as the challenger pan. I'm semi-curious about the Emily Henry one; how well does it bake compared to cast iron? It's a lot more affordable (70-80 euros).

 

[RonB]

This will work. But you won't get a large loaf in there, so that's something to keep in mind.

You are correct Sir! But for that kind of $$, I'd divide the dough and make two smaller boules.

 

[Bensbites]

If you want to learn lean doughs, the best guide I have found is Josey baker bread cookbook. He takes you from zero to SD hearth loaf over a number of loaves where you add a skill with each. After that read tartine and Ken forking FWSY.

 

[sumis]

started out with the first tartine book. failed miserably and repeatedly until i didn't. there are better books, and certainly easier bread to make if you're new to baking, but there's something to be said for sticking to one recipe until you own it. you'll learn a lot from that, compared to jumping between endless voices and variants, in books or on YT, in order to fix your mistakes. if you do the same thing over and over, you'll really get a feeling for fermentation times, dough structure, shaping, etc. changing stuff around because you fail, or because your loaf isn't instagram worthy, might just make the path to success longer. but that's just me. and i'm still just a lousy home baker.

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[HumbleHomeCook]

started out with the first tartine book. failed miserably and repeatedly until i didn't. there are better books, and certainly easier bread to make if you're new to baking, but there's something to be said for sticking to one recipe until you own it. you'll learn a lot from that, compared to jumping between endless voices and variants, in books or on YT, in order to fix your mistakes. if you do the same thing over and over, you'll really get a feeling for fermentation times, dough structure, shaping, etc. changing stuff around because you fail, or because your loaf isn't instagram worthy, might just make the path to success longer. but that's just me. and i'm still just a lousy home baker.

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Yep, my plan is to land on a couple recipes we like and then stick them for a while until I feel like I'm really understanding them and adjusting and improving them. Pre-Fermentation is down the road for me for sure.

Sticking with simple stuff right now. The wife has enjoyed the two recipes I tried but thinks she likes the latest a little more so I'll stick with that for now. Our goal is not buy commercial sliced bread any more.

 

[MrHiggins]

Right now I'm obsessed with making pan de cristal, using the King Arthur Flour recipe (and related YouTube video). It's surprisingly easy and really delicious. Give it a whirl!

 

[ian]

Right now I'm obsessed with making pan de cristal, using the King Arthur Flour recipe (and related YouTube video). It's surprisingly easy and really delicious. Give it a whirl!

Pretty cool. Haven’t made something quite like that before.

 

[Jovidah]

Keeping in mind that I'm not an experienced bread baker by any means (<100), but my 2 cents:

IMO beyond following recipes, if you're going to bake a lot it's worth investing effort to see how you can simplify the process. A lot of recipes are really strict with timing and whatnot, to the point that they're just not practical. But I found that if you're taking a more laissez-faire approach, for example with no-knead recipes and long rise times you still get great bread. The big gamechanger for me was when I realized you can just retard bread dough for up to a full week in the fridge. So you can just make a larger batch and bake parts of it throughout the week.
Anything with long rise times is IMO also easier logistically since it tends to be less particular whether you do it an hour more or less. The taste also tends to be better (and if you care about this sort of thing; the glycemic profile also tends to be healthier). So personally for actual bread I'd never put sugar in it... it's just there to give more food to the yeast to speed things up.
Another thing I picked up... fresh bread is of course always best, but if you take a couple of days to finish your bread you could add some oil to it. Since it stays liquid at room temperature it will be perceived as less dry after a couple of days. Though you could also just revive it in the oven.

In the end there's a million ways to make bread and it's really not all that particular as long as you remember that the most important ingredient is time. If it has enough time, it'll always taste good, even if texture wasn't what you were hoping for. This is also why most supermarket breads are so crap because this is exactly what's lacking.

 

[ian]

So, can someone tell me… what’s the deal with the radically varying rise recommendations for bulk fermentation? The recommended amount of increase varies from 1.3x to 1.5x to 2x, and even to 3x, depending on the author. I get better results with 2x-3x than with 1.3x-1.5x, but why the huge variety in recs? Are there actually tradeoffs that you’re trying to optimize for?

 

[Michi]

The big gamechanger for me was when I realized you can just retard bread dough for up to a full week in the fridge.

I've never tried longer than 36 hours. But that usually works fine.

One thing that really makes a difference for me is doing a proper pre-shaping, letting the dough rest again for 30-60 minutes, and then doing the final shaping. Much better oven spring that way.

 

[Michi]

So, can someone tell me… what’s the deal with the radically varying rise recommendations for bulk fermentation?

I find that those times are basically useless, other than saying "do a bulk fermentation". Things vary a lot with temperature. And humidity. And how active the starter is. And the phase of the moon…

I time bulk fermentation by feel these days. Watch how much the dough has risen, poke it a bit, and be aware of the temperature. When it feels right, I pre-shape. I rarely don't get a good to excellent bread these days. Maybe one in ten doesn't turn out perfectly (but is still perfectly good to eat).

Not jumping around different techniques and recipes is a good idea, too. Once I have a particular recipe down, I branch out and try something new. The pan de cristal is on my list of things to try. So far, I haven't had the courage to actually do it—the 100% hydration really makes the dough hard to handle. I guess I can let my stand mixer do the bulk of the work…

 

[ian]

I find that those times are basically useless, other than saying "do a bulk fermentation". Things vary a lot with temperature. And humidity. And how active the starter is. And the phase of the moon…

I time bulk fermentation by feel these days. Watch how much the dough has risen, poke it a bit, and be aware of the temperature. When it feels right, I pre-shape. I rarely don't get a good to excellent bread these days. Maybe one in ten doesn't turn out perfectly (but is still perfectly good to eat).

This seems accurate for timed recommendations, but I was more wondering about varying recs for volume increase ("1.3x to 1.5x to 2x, and even to 3x" means let the dough increase by half, double, or triple, etc...). I suppose I also wait till it "feels right" most of the time, or more realistically till the dough feels right *and* I feel like doing something about it. Maybe what this is really indicating is that there's a pretty wide window where you get acceptable results. Still, the true bakers out there seem to have pretty exacting standards for when they terminate a bulk ferment, so there must be a good reason for their particular recommendations.

This person is insane, btw: https://www.youtube.com/c/FullProofBaking

Also, this thread made me think of my older one. So much good expertise on this site.

 

[Jovidah]

Yeah I share Michi's observation. There's so many factors that play a role in rise / fermentation times (room temperature, air moisture level, starter activity, etc) that someone else's time recommendation aren't necessarily 100% accurate for you. Personally I prefer to just go by volume and feel.

I don't know where the very specific recommendations come from... but I guess just like with knives people have a habbit of sometimes needlessly overcomplicating things. Of course when you're looking for absolute perfection things become a bit more strict, but if you lower your bar to 'pretty damn good' there's like you said a pretty wide window that will lead to great results.

 

[MrHiggins]

.... The pan de crystal is on my list of things to try. So far, I haven't had the courage to actually do it—the 100% hydration really makes the dough hard to handle. I guess I can let me stand mixer do the bulk of the work…

I encourage you to try it. You actually don't use the stand mixer at all. All the "kneeding" is done in a shallow pie pan and consists of folding the dough in various ways. Here's the video that I follow (roughly), and is accurate given my experiences trying it.

 

[Michi]

This seems accurate for timed recommendations, but I was more wondering about varying recs for volume increase ("1.3x to 1.5x to 2x, and even to 3x" means let the dough increase by half, double, or triple, etc...).

2x and more seems unlikely to me. I get 2x from an active starter (or maybe a little over), but not from a normal dough. If I were to leave the dough alone completely after mixing it, maybe. But I usually have several slap and folds in the routine (or stretch and folds), which degasses the dough each time before it gets to the 2x point.

Once I have the dough shaped and in the banneton, I look for a 20-30% volume increase. That means that the dough rises above the rim of the banneton by maybe just under an inch. At that point, it passes the poke test, is obviously nicely gassed up, isn't over-proofed (no sagging or excessive jiggling), and it just feels right.

I really don't know how to explain this better. If the dough is under-proofed, it is lifeless and dense, and looks and feels just like a lump of dough. Inert and boring. If the dough is over-proofed, it looks weak, limp, tends to collapse without recovering when poked, and jiggles a lot. If the dough is just right, it feels lively, springy, light and airy without being weak, and slightly rubbery.

Once you get it right once, you will know what to look for. Just pay attention to what the dough looks and feels like before you put it into the oven. Remember that and, if the result isn't to your liking, extend or reduce the proofing time accordingly, again observing what the dough is like just before it goes into the oven. It doesn't take long to home in on when the dough is ready and "right".

Again, I have to emphasise the importance of pre-shaping and final shaping. That is when I get a lot more tension into the dough and really tighten that gluten network without de-gassing the dough too much. Those steps are, in my experience, the most critical. Whenever I skimp on these steps (usually because I'm rushed or distracted), I get punished by a bread with a crumb that is too dense, and without much oven spring.

 

[ian]

2x and more seems unlikely to me. I get 2x from an active starter (or maybe a little over), but not from a normal dough. If I were to leave the dough alone completely after mixing it, maybe. But I usually have several slap and folds in the routine (or stretch and folds), which degasses the dough each time before it gets to the 2x point.

Usually the 3x recs are for recipes where you do some folds early in the bulk ferment, and the leave it out at room temp overnight or something. There are some recipes like that in FWSY, and they’ve generally worked well for me, except a couple times when it was too hot out and they were unworkable in the morning.