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The Ban of Darkhoek **Update post 163***

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oivind_dahle

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Well, as a few of you know Im not impressed about how this forum is run. Seams that this site has become a one man show and store, where all business must go to one person. When I joined, the vision was that it should be a place to take care of the small business man, but as time went by this site does not take care of everyone.

I know my opinion is of no importance to most here, so you all might be happy if Im banned to.

Bill Burke, Pierre Rodrigues, Marko: If I get banned our project will go through mail.

Can I get some feedback on this one?
http://*****************.com/2011/11/banned-from-kitchenknifeforumscom.html


I am one of those that think Darkhoek got something to teach us all with his great post, knowledge and great WIPs. To bad a fantastic member like that get banned from a site like this. I though this was a forum to share our passion and knowledge....

Merry x-mas btw
 

bprescot

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Wait, what? That's crazy. I'm sure that must have been a mistake or misunderstanding. Given the number of people that are doing handles or blades as Hobbyists and then being able to use the Hobbyist site to sell in forum, I'm just not sure that a WIP thread is truly reason for a ban...

Or is it that DH took the Shige restore job? Given that nearly everyone in thread agreed that's where it should go, I'm not sure that's really a good reason either. Explanation please?
 

El Pescador

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You make it seem as this came out of nowhere, and I doubt this is the case. Marko made the jump from member to vendor. As I remember it is reasonable to become a vendor. I"m amazed that Harald hasn't chosen to go this route.

Oivind, have you contacted Dave via PM or email to get a better idea as to what occurred?

Pesky
 

chazmtb

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I don't know the whole story behind this, but it seems that to be fair to all the paying vendors, if you profit from the use of the forum, in any significant way, you should be a paying vendor. It is only fair. Many here have made the move.
 

Marko Tsourkan

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I suggest a one-time warning before a ban. Sometimes, these things can happen unintentionally. I understand, this forum has rules and they posted publicly, but stuff happens. I hope you guys (mods and Dave) show some flexibility.
Vendors, not vendors, but we also have a community here so that needs to be taken in consideration as well.

M
 

bprescot

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I guess I get that. But it seems like a lot of people are now getting into knives and handles and the like. The line between vendor and hobbyist seems a bit blurry. If I see a hobbyist doing some cool stuff and ask him to make me one too, are they now a vendor? Or is it only if they try to actively sell?
 

Dave Martell

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Oivind, once again you show poor form in how you deal with things but non the less I'll address your concerns.

DH has been temporarily banned for a period of 30 days starting today.

According to DH's blog he states that he doesn't understand why he has been banned and did nothing to warrant this however this is not truthful. DH was spoken to about advertising for his business through his blog signature link and homepage links and promised me that he wasn't doing business so I allowed him to continue posting the sig link. I took him for his word. Since then he has removed his signature link (or never re-posted it) to his blog himself. We had a very lengthy PM about this matter and I made the other moderators aware of this issue.

Today he posted images (within a thread that he started in the Kitchen Knife forum) of a knife that he finihsed working on for another individual with a noter that he wasn't sure if this was the correct way/place to post them. The fact is that he made mention that they were done for another person and that he does accept business and he posted even knowing the rules here.

My choice here was to either once again explain to him the rules of the site or give him some time off to think about it.

The thing is here that I'm not a policeman nor do I want to be one but it's a fact that many knifemakers and knife customizers have been taking advantage of this site and making me play one. You folks have absolutely no idea the level to which this type of crap goes on and how I'm forced to deal with it all of the time. Let's just say that there's a hell of a lot more takers than givers showing up here.

The rules are laid out to follow the exact mission to which this forum was begun for. There has been no change in what we're doing here except that we've had to implement rules upon rules upon rules because of people taking advantage. If it were up to me it would have remained the same as it was day #1 but other people have made that impossible.

As for this place being a one man show/store, Oivind, that's pretty low. Maybe the other 16 vendors might disagree with you on that.

Speaking of the vendors here, they are one of the main reasons why I've taken a stand against people advertising freely. The pay a fee to have the right to advertise here and this fee (almost) pays for the monthly costs to run the site. I aim to protect the rights that they pay for.

On the issue of keeping other knifemakers/vendors out of here I have another consideration besides the paying vendors and that is to protect the membership from scammers, users, and kitchen knife shaped objects. Most of us know what happened to KF when the leeches were allowed in and I don't intend to repeat the mistakes that were made there.

Besides those two issues, there is no hidden agenda or reasons to keep other knifemaker/vendors out of here. I think the fact that I've allowed and even invited many of the vendors here that are direct competition to my business should speak volumes to my character and what I'm trying to do here.

On you being banned for speaking out here in this thread Oivind, that won't happen unless you go all crazy or something and start cursing us out or something like that. Besides, if we were looking to ban you it would have been done already for that horsesh*t move you pulled by threatening to take your knife back during the BB donation.

So back on topic, DH is banned for 30 days, and when that time is up we welcome him back. He's been a valuable member of the community and we hope that this isn't going to be something that we have happen again.

Now I look forward to wasting another evening dealing with this crap....

Dave
 

bprescot

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Ah. I didn't realize DH had a full-fledged side-business. Thought he was just an avid hobbyist. Seems clear and fair to me! If I were he I'd just become a vendor. Not really sure why he hasn't if this is a official or semi-official thing for him:scratchhead:
 

DWSmith

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Rules are rules and I appreciate Daves protection of the vendors who play by the rules. BTW The vendor fee is very reasonable as compared to other sites. Hopefully Dave won't have to increase it to cover his expenses.
 

Salty dog

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I just wasted 10 minutes describing how I feel about the direction this site is taking but decided to delete it because I figure I'd be banned before I could sell some knives.
 

mainaman

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You make it seem as this came out of nowhere, and I doubt this is the case.

Pesky
So anyone that enjoys making handles and sayas from time to time has to become a vendor to be able to post their work here? Harald has not posted a WIP in a long time if I am not wrong.
 

chazmtb

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So anyone that enjoys making handles and sayas from time to time has to become a vendor to be able to post their work here? Harald has not posted a WIP in a long time if I am not wrong.
I don't think that is the case, but I think that it is a matter of repeated patterns of self promotion, and politely being reminded of the rules.
 

Dave Martell

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I just wasted 10 minutes describing how I feel about the direction this site is taking but decided to delete it because I figure I'd be banned before I could sell some knives.

W.T.F?

If this site is headed in the wrong direction it's because of people like yourself pushing it that way. Case in point - you post on another site that you won't ever post here again yet days later you show here up to sell your knives. What's that about? Another user....
 

Dave Martell

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So anyone that enjoys making handles and sayas from time to time has to become a vendor to be able to post their work here? Harald has not posted a WIP in a long time if I am not wrong.
I don't think that is the case, but I think that it is a matter of repeated patterns of self promotion, and politely being reminded of the rules.

Exactly Bao
 

SpikeC

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I've posted a lot of stuff that I have made and I'm still here. I don't see the problem with following the guidelines here.
It seems to me that Salty has had a very negative attitude about this site from the very beginning.
 

mr drinky

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Well, I too like darkhoek's input and love seeing his work, but I also look at it from the other direction. A lot of forums don't allow any type of self-promotion of personal sites (blogs, commercial etc.) and posting links to your site is a big no-no and will usually lead to a PM and post deletion. The way this site is set up with a commercial/vendor side, it almost makes sense to eliminate links to personal sites altogether (in the signature line and posts). Let people link to their blogs in their profile or maybe have a blogroll thread where people can have a one-time blog promotion post. But after that, resign yourself to not being able to promote your knife work, writing, pictures, or food porn -- unless you pay to be a vendor that is.

k.
 

Peco

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Speaking of the vendors here, they are one of the main reasons why I've taken a stand against people advertising freely. The pay a fee to have the right to advertise here and this fee (almost) pays for the monthly costs to run the site. I aim to protect the rights that they pay for.
Where do you guys buy your hosting? I have a forum which is free to use (not kniferelated!!!) and I have + 500 members. No one pays any fees (vendor, donations, supporting membership) and my exspence per year is less than $50. I really have a hard time understanding why your vendors, newly added donation button and supported memberships should not give any profit?
 

Dave Martell

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Where do you guys buy your hosting? I have a forum which is free to use (not kniferelated!!!) and I have + 500 members. No one pays any fees (vendor, donations, supporting membership) and my exspence per year is less than $50. I really have a hard time understanding why your vendors, newly added donation button and supported memberships should not give any profit?

This forum costs a LOT more than you're paying. The software licensing alone was about 8x that. I can assure you that there's no profit being generated by this site.
 
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Vertigo

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Haha, yeah vBulletin is a ***** when it comes to the license. I'm assuming you sprung for the pro setup and install too, which easily puts your initial costs between $400 and $500.

Beyond that though, we only serve up 2100 or so unique visitors a month on BBS software, the bandwidth overhead shouldn't be too bad. If you're getting gouged Dave, shoot me a PM and I'll happily get you set up on something more affordable.
 

Eamon Burke

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Hey, there's no ads here. There's no picking between whether or not the vendors here are selling shyte. There is no stress for people who have a business to run, unless they are trying to advertise without paying.

I have a business myself that I don't advertise here because I haven't paid. It's really simple--here you are just a member, until you pay the fee to be a vendor. Then you are a vendor, and get your own little corner and can do whatever regarding your business. Mr. Haas just posted some prop knife he made an a metorite knife because it is of interest and shows his skills. He does a WIP like every fortnight. He paid one time, and has a happy little vendor life.

Personally, I am happy WIP are allowed, since that is one of the great things about this site, but I do prefer that the rules lean on justice over mercy. A "hobby" can turn into a year long backorder in not so long. IIRC, Fish was selling handles in like 20 minutes back in the day.
 

Pensacola Tiger

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Just out of curiosity, what does a vendor pay per year?
 

sudsy9977

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I gotta just add a double *** towards Scott.....Ryan
 

sudsy9977

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Dave whats up....i can't type w....t....f.....haha....ryan
 

Chef Niloc

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I just wasted 10 minutes describing how I feel about the direction this site is taking but decided to delete it because I figure I'd be banned before I could sell some knives.
Too bad I would have loved to read that post
 

UglyJoe

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I don't see the problem. If DH is taking money for work, then posting a thread showing said work, this is advertising. You don't have to come out and say "send me your knife!" for it to be advertising. Imagine one of the chef's here posting a bunch of videos of food for their restaurant, telling us how great his specials are now and mention that he's open for business but never out and out saying "Come eat here!". It would still be advertising. Not exactly the same thing, but close enough.

I love DH work, and I love his WIP threads, but if he is taking work from other forum members and posting the results of said work, it's advertising. I hope that DH isn't hurt by this and I hope that he decides to becoming a supporting vendor... I think it would be great!
 

Salty dog

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W.T.F?

If this site is headed in the wrong direction it's because of people like yourself pushing it that way. Case in point - you post on another site that you won't ever post here again yet days later you show here up to sell your knives. What's that about? Another user....
To be honest I thought I'd hang around long enough to sell some knives. But that just doesn't seem right. So I won't.

Rather than make a stir I'll go silently into the night.

I do wish you the best. I truely believe your motives are genuine.
 

SpikeC

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There must be something that is not generally known, because this makes no sense to me.
 
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