The classic knives against which all others are measured

[pkb]

Great point. Can you offer some specific knife design details, like the clipped santoku, that are directly related to an anthropological point? What about the German culture makes the more pronounced belly of their traditional knives useful? Why has that trait developed or survived there where it hasn't in other cultures?

My comment about feet was only to provide an impossible example that would obviously influence that region's knife design. It seems like your example is one where the culture and the knife are so entangled that both parties need to make concessions. Very interesting.

To the point of the thread, there are iconic knives and they obviously come from somewhere, at some time, for some reason. How have they--the knives--"interbred", and which have had the strongest impacts? Why? How? The anthropology is interesting and it definitely supports be the point (yes, pun) of this thread.

 

[SpikeC]

And where did the Sabatier configuration come from?

 

[olpappy]

Great point. Can you offer some specific knife design details, like the clipped santoku, that are directly related to an anthropological point? What about the German culture makes the more pronounced belly of their traditional knives useful? Why has that trait developed or survived there where it hasn't in other cultures?

My comment about feet was only to provide an impossible example that would obviously influence that region's knife design. It seems like your example is one where the culture and the knife are so entangled that both parties need to make concessions. Very interesting.

To the point of the thread, there are iconic knives and they obviously come from somewhere, at some time, for some reason. How have they--the knives--"interbred", and which have had the strongest impacts? Why? How? The anthropology is interesting and it definitely supports be the point (yes, pun) of this thread.

The evolution of an iconic design takes place over a long period of time, such that people wouldn't necessarily take notice of it, and in times past no one has been interested in kitchen knives enough to keep a written history. Chad Ward's book may be possibly the first ever book in human history devoted solely to kitchen knives? The closest thing one can find on the internet is the history of how the different lines of Sabatier came about, the history of the families and the companies is well documented.

To my way of thinking the primary factor which dictates is ability to do the task and hand. Form follows function. eg. ulu knife for cutting blubber and skinning, one can use the curve of the knife to "roll" the blade, easier to cut with one hand, frozen conditions etc I wouldn't know all the detailed points but an eskimo probably could.

But besides that are the idiosyncratic human factors "whatever is your favorite currently" in other words you can prep foods using a Chinese cleaver or a French chef, both work well. The tools and its manner of use is closely tied to the culture and people. Just like knowing the language, the tools tell you something about the people that made them.

Henckels knives emphasize certain values - durability, near indestructability which 50 years ago people placed value on. Japanese knives are the opposite - carbon steel, ho wood, relatively fragile, if left uncared for would self destruct rapidly.

The single beveled Japanese knife has very specific features which make it unique - shinogi, asymmetry, back side ura. There must surely been a fascinating evolution of this complicated design.

 

[olpappy]

One of the best examples of interbreeding is the modern gyuto with a 70/30 asymmetric edge which is a Japanese concept which has been applied to western double bevel. The end result is neither the classic Japanese single bevel nor a typical double bevel but something completely new.

 

[jmforge]

I too have scratched my head over the years thinking about the prices of some custom knives like those by Loveless. I finally asked a couple of guys who know a lot more about his knives than I do (which wouldn't take much mind you) and they said the things that make Loveless knives so special AS A TOOL, is the "feel" and the way they are ground. They have VERY deep hollow grinds, to the point that Bob admitted that he ad ground through to the other side more than once. Apparently, very few people have ever been able to duplicate his designs faithfully. I say his designs because for much of his later career, he had other makers working in his shop, most of whom are now famous in their own right. His last "partner" Jim Merritt, has been running the shop since Bob passed away as far as I know.
Bill Moran's knives were the same way. I have owned a couple of his knives and knives from four of his VERY talented and famous proteges and only one of those guys, Robbie Hudson, seemed to have come very close to fully mastering Bill's unique freehand full height convex grind. The others were either thicker or pretty much flat grinds with a convex edge like what the Arkansas makers use. Bill's later knives had a grind that to the eye appeared to have no edge bevel at all. Just a very shallow convex drop from the spine to the edge. Moran knives, by Bill's own admission late in life. would never pass the ABS MS test today and probably not the JS test. But if you ask people inthe know about them, they will tell you that you cannot fully appreciate a Moran knife with actually holding on in your hand. As you guys know quite well, the grind is often the difference no matter how pretty a knife may look.