The Swedish experiment

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The response from public health agency of Sweden has been to say that we are best, then that numbers can’t be compared, then that other countries will catch up, then that we are best in the world, then that numbers can’t be compared, and now that the numbers are probably wrong. Let me tell you, that there is a lot of frustration among many Swedes about this, and there are also many Swedes who seem ignorant that there is actually a pandemic going on.

The response from our government is that they listen to the ministry of health, so they do their best to avoid accountability. Our prime minister, however, said that each citizen must take responsibility and push through.

You probably can see my frustration shining through. I don’t know what’s wrong or right, but some national leadership from someone who is not a professional welder would be appreciated.
 
DrEriksson said:
The response from public health agency of Sweden has been to say that we are best, then that numbers can’t be compared, then that other countries will catch up, then that we are best in the world, then that numbers can’t be compared, and now that the numbers are probably wrong. Let me tell you, that there is a lot of frustration among many Swedes about this, and there are also many Swedes who seem ignorant that there is actually a pandemic going on.

The response from our government is that they listen to the ministry of health, so they do their best to avoid accountability. Our prime minister, however, said that each citizen must take responsibility and push through.

You probably can see my frustration shining through. I don’t know what’s wrong or right, but some national leadership from someone who is not a professional welder would be appreciated.
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The Swedish strategy has bin debated a lot here in Denmark too.. anything else would be weird when two comparable neighbor countries choose so different strategies. I won’t be the judge of what was wrong and right. We must all accepts that we are currently paving the road while we walk it. And mistakes will be made.
 
HappyamateurDK said:
The Swedish strategy has bin debated a lot here in Denmark too.. anything else would be weird when two comparable neighbor countries choose so different strategies. I won’t be the judge of what was wrong and right. We must all accepts that we are currently paving the road while we walk it. And mistakes will be made.
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We certainly not must accept the mistakes made though. The government should be held accountable for how they lead the country. And just because we pave the road as we go, we should not be content with a poorly paved road.
 
DrEriksson said:
We certainly not must accept the mistakes made though. The government should be held accountable for how they lead the country. And just because we pave the road as we go, we should not be content with a poorly paved road.
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It would have suited your minister of state, and Anders Tegnell to turn down the arrogance a bit.
 
what none of you seem to understand is that "locking down the country" is not a legal option. this is not stasi germany. or russia. there is 0 legal actions they could take to lock down people. and to change any of these laws you have to change the swedish variant of the constitution (grundlagen) and you can only do that over a period of at least 2 or 3 mandate periods (4 years each), to prevent things like what happened in germany in the 40ies... and you all know how well that one went.

and besides that. none of that **** would have made any difference at all. the people that are dying in sweden isn't really dying because of the lax laws. its because of the people that are treating the old are imported incompetent people that dont know jack **** about hygiene. and they dont even care. and the real problem is that the gov is not willing to speak the truth. because that would show that they have been blinded by their **** ideology for 30 years straight.

but hey *** do i know.

tegnell is just saying what he's been told to say. to downplay the previous 30 years of idiocracy. and many people voted for this. they wanted this. and now they get it. *** is there to complain about??
 
inferno said:
what none of you seem to understand is that...
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It seems like you’re addressing me as I recently posted here, but it’s hard to know as your answer does not reflect my previous posts. But at least your post proved Godwin right.
 
DrEriksson said:
We certainly not must accept the mistakes made though. The government should be held accountable for how they lead the country. And just because we pave the road as we go, we should not be content with a poorly paved road.
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I agree.

I think finding your way by trying out things that make sense to an educated group is ok. Then you reassess and try to figure out where a) your mistakes were and b) how to improve on them. That's how science works.

I've only followed Sweden's response from a significant distance (I'm in Melbourne). To me it seems Sweden fell into the same trap most of us did - thinking what we're dealing with is something like influenza. Pandemic influenza is the pathogen that countries all over the world had been 'ready' to combat for many years. That's what those supplies of gowns, masks etc were for. And that's what the book of pandemic response was written for.

COVID, of course, is quite different from influenza for a number of reasons. No point in trying to write a boring long diatribe here but I'm thinking of things like transmission (particularly via aerosols), significant pre-symptomatic phase during which people are already infectious and, of course, the significant morbidity and mortality the illness carries.

To me it seems that Sweden felt that this was some form of influenza-like illness. Sure, a bit worse, but in the end something that could be fought with the weapons that worked sufficiently against pandemic influenza. Turns out that is not the case. To me the problem lies not in Sweden's initial response to the pandemic - everyone was scrambling to find an effective strategy - but in the stubborn denial that what they were doing was not working.

I of course spent the pandemic in a country that was highly successful in suppressing the pandemic. I am quite happy how it went. But we also need to be mindful of the fact that the response in some Australian states was quite draconian. When some people felt the significant restrictions were uncalled for (which I don't agree with) and wanted to protest they were told that 'now is not the time to protest'. This is a very dangerous way to argue in a democracy.

This pandemic - for all its horror - has brought about many aspects of fascination for me. One is certainly the possibility to see every single country in the world and how they respond to a threat. It's not the same threat, mind you, because those countries are so different regarding infrastructure, location, financial resources, population and so forth. But at the core - a sub-existential challenge of the rarest kind - it is the same for all.
 
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inferno said:
what none of you seem to understand is that "locking down the country" is not a legal option. this is not stasi germany. or russia. there is 0 legal actions they could take to lock down people. and to change any of these laws you have to change the swedish variant of the constitution (grundlagen) and you can only do that over a period of at least 2 or 3 mandate periods (4 years each), to prevent things like what happened in germany in the 40ies... and you all know how well that one went.

and besides that. none of that **** would have made any difference at all. the people that are dying in sweden isn't really dying because of the lax laws. its because of the people that are treating the old are imported incompetent people that dont know jack **** about hygiene. and they dont even care. and the real problem is that the gov is not willing to speak the truth. because that would show that they have been blinded by their **** ideology for 30 years straight.

but hey *** do i know.

tegnell is just saying what he's been told to say. to downplay the previous 30 years of idiocracy. and many people voted for this. they wanted this. and now they get it. *** is there to complain about??
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if you want to avoid what happened in Germany in the 40’s (actually it was in the 30’s what you’re referring to) just make sure that Austrians are not allowed to take any important roles in your government. That’s all.

Austria: starting two world wars, winning none and (Successfully) blaming Germany both times.

i’m kidding, of course. Or am I? 🤣🤪
 
I don't subscribe to the idea that Sweden had no legal options. Or that its hands were tied by its constitution. I think that is more myth than truth. One that has been spread by people who are sympathetic to the Libertarian streak contained in that line of reasoning.

Non-lawyers like to frame law as black and white. In reality it can be awfully grey. A fair interpretation might require you to balance complex issues against many considerations. That can vary according to individual subjectivity, how the meaning of words are interpreted and what the perceived 'intention' of the law is. It isn't straight forward and this is why legal scholars can have different opinions on what is legally permissible.

Most countries have exceptional laws for health emergencies. Sweden is no different. They have the Infection Control Act which includes the following sections:

Chapter 6, Section 4: The Government or the authority determined by the Government may issue the additional regulations required for appropriate infection control and for the protection of individuals.
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and

Chapter 6, Section 6: The Government may issue special regulations on infection control in accordance with this Act, if in a peacetime crisis that has a significant impact on the possibilities of maintaining effective infection control, there is a need for coordinated national measures or from a national perspective other special efforts in infection control.
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If you don't accept there is legal room to act within those sections of the law, consider that the Government is there to Govern. Sweden passed laws in early-mid 2020 to close schools and businesses (etc) temporarily. The Government could have pursued continued and stronger measures in parliament. If there was a will, I am sure there would have been a way. But was there a will?

I am not claiming there isn't friction or politicking within Swedish governance. Maybe amending the law to address the pandemic would have taken two weeks... Maybe a month. Maybe it would have been impossible with a hostile opposition and parliament. Is that the same as zero legal options? I dont think so... It just circles back to ideology and whether people across the political spectrum can put aside their differences and act in the best interest of the people they serve.
 
I agree with much of what’s been written today. Just want to make clear that it’s hard (impossible) for me to know what strategy is right.

I can however be upset by the lack of leadership, the lack of accountability, the behavior of our government officials (our PM went Xmas shopping and was almost proud for not knowing how to order online, the director general of the public health agency used public transport without mask when the ministry had recommended to use masks), the lack of preparedness (lack of face masks and disinfection) and how the blame is put on local leadership when it’s a national issue.

So while it’s a tough situation, there are things we should demand to work properly, and these things are not contingent on what strategy that is ultimately implemented.
 
DrEriksson said:
So while it’s a tough situation, there are things we should demand to work properly, and these things are not contingent on what strategy that is ultimately implemented.
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I think a lot of it has to do with human psychology and the difficulty for many to pivot their mindset of how the world works to a significant degree.

Even in the medical community there have been many (and there still remain some) who were unwilling to see what was going to unfold. Even while Italy was being crushed by the pandemic people elsewhere said 'Yeah well, that's Italy - not us...'. For doctors who should have at least some basic understanding of epidemiological concepts of spread of contagious diseases (slow at first, then picking up at an immense rate -> exponential growth) there were quite a few who just couldn't (or wouldn't) see what was to come.

I see the mask denial in a somewhat similar light. The science behind all of it can be overwhelming to some to a degree that makes living with this degree of uncertainty and loss of control too difficult. By denying this reality it all suddenly becomes much easier. Nature can't easily be controlled. But if I find someone else to blame for these things - a human, or a group of identifiable humans for instance - then all of this nebulous, uncontrollable fear suddenly finds somewhere to hook on and give me something to focus on. Something that has always made sense.

As Kissinger once said: 'De Nile is not only a river in Africa...'
 
I think another factor that plays into that is just naked fear. Quite a lot of people react to that with denial. "If we pretend that everything is just fine, it'll be fine."
 
I have no horses in this race and as someone distant to the politics of Swedish Corona response - I find it hard to judge statements on Twitter - even if made by someone with authority on the topic ...
 
I doubt that a group on Facebook was able to change national statistics. I also doubt that they coerced the state epidemiologist to say both that we can’t compare our numbers to Norway and that our numbers are better than Norway.

Reminds me of another example where Spider-Man is used. If someone finds a Spider-Man magazine in 2000 years it doesn’t prove that Spider-Man was real just because they might prove that NY was/is real. Each claim must be evaluated based on the evidence for the specific claim. Finding one group with clandestine plans criticizing Sweden does not falsify all criticism.
 
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Looks like Aussies & New Zealand did something right. I remember early on people in denial in USA used Sweden as example of not shutting down and doing fine.

Just watched a show on how China covered up that it was person to person spread. They even let Chinese New Year with a lot of travel go on in those early days. They thought they could contain it. Of coarse when they realized it was similar to Sars that could cause organ damage & death to some they locked down wuhan. It was not quite as deadly as Sars but much more contagious. Now it's said that new strains are emerging that are even more contagious.

In Hawaii we are getting better than much of the country esp. since health care & essential workers, age 75 & up have been getting their shots. I'm in the 65-75 we go next.

I will say though these shutdowns have been brutal to our economy.
 
Keith Sinclair said:
Looks like Aussies & New Zealand did something right. I remember early on people in denial in USA used Sweden as example of not shutting down and doing fine.
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Well, we are paying a high price. Yesterday, all of Victoria went into a five-day lock-down. The UK variant got loose in one of the quarantine hotels and, unfortunately, made its way to a cafe at Melbourne airport. Now they are trying to put the lid back on and contact trace 1,500 people, some of whom have since flown inter-state. Only about a dozen cases so far. The next few days will tell whether we'll manage yet again to contain it.
 
Michi said:
Well, we are paying a high price. Yesterday, all of Victoria went into a five-day lock-down. The UK variant got loose in one of the quarantine hotels and, unfortunately, made its way to a cafe at Melbourne airport. Now they are trying to put the lid back on and contact trace 1,500 people, some of whom have since flown inter-state. Only about a dozen cases so far. The next few days will tell whether we'll manage yet again to contain it.
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Given the hardball you guys have played so far, I'd bet on you.
 
Keith Sinclair said:
Looks like Aussies & New Zealand did something right. I remember early on people in denial in USA used Sweden as example of not shutting down and doing fine.

Just watched a show on how China covered up that it was person to person spread. They even let Chinese New Year with a lot of travel go on in those early days. They thought they could contain it. Of coarse when they realized it was similar to Sars that could cause organ damage & death to some they locked down wuhan. It was not quite as deadly as Sars but much more contagious. Now it's said that new strains are emerging that are even more contagious.

In Hawaii we are getting better than much of the country esp. since health care & essential workers, age 75 & up have been getting their shots. I'm in the 65-75 we go next.

I will say though these shutdowns have been brutal to our economy.
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Honestly, the US is doing really well on the vaccination front compared to the rest of the world, and much better over the last few weeks. That doesn't mean perfectly, but pretty well, and getting better. Basically, the UK and Israel are doing better, everywhere else is doing worse. Here in Europe, we're just screwed completely. I can count on my vaccine sometime in 2022. Maybe.
 
Michi said:
Well, we are paying a high price. Yesterday, all of Victoria went into a five-day lock-down. The UK variant got loose in one of the quarantine hotels and, unfortunately, made its way to a cafe at Melbourne airport. Now they are trying to put the lid back on and contact trace 1,500 people, some of whom have since flown inter-state. Only about a dozen cases so far. The next few days will tell whether we'll manage yet again to contain it.
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Hope Australia will manage to keep it isolated. But the solution seems to be banning outside travel until this is over.
Again and again we are shown that people can't follow simple rules and the rest of the society pay the price. Some don't understand the concept of quarantine or the seriousness of the situation. Once the virus gets loose it's hard to contain it. Especially if people are realxed and think it is not a threat.
 
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danemonji said:
Hope Australia will manage to keep it isolated. But the solution seems to be banning outside travel until this is over.
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I don't believe that's an option, even though it would be helpful. There are still tens of thousands of Australians overseas who are trying to get home. And, as far as I know, Australia can't lock out its own citizens; doing so would be in breach of international law.
 
Their were quite a few Samoans in Hawaii that had to stay here for a year because not allowed to return. Pacific Islanders had the highest rate of infection. Partly because many live in multi generation family units. Rates went up during Thanksgiving, Christmas, & New Year. Plenty of illegal ariels & other fireworks. New Year is huge.
 
Finlands done pretty well in all of this in my book. If we look at it purely how the pandemic has been contained. In a country of 5.5 million people, with the second wave in full effect, atm we have only about 400 new cases of witch about 100 are hospitalized and 18 are in intensive care. We just came out of the Christmas holiday season when there was a lot of traveling in the country, contrary to expectations it had almost no effect on those numbers.

But the government is getting a lot of critique of making overly harsh decision compared to the existing situation. Because of that there is much concern that financially we'll be severely held back and it might take a lot longer for us to recover than our Scandinavian neighbors. Though that only remains to be seen of course. But if you think about it. If we get out of this this faster due to good control containing the pandemic that should help get back on track faster too. But who knows?

Seems it really doesn't matter what the government decides it's always wrong. Take serious actions and it's overkill that's destroying the economy. Take a softer approach and you don't care about the people. Ya just can't win?
 
Michi said:
I don't believe that's an option, even though it would be helpful. There are still tens of thousands of Australians overseas who are trying to get home. And, as far as I know, Australia can't lock out its own citizens; doing so would be in breach of international law.
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They can't lock them out, but they could whip up some truly draconian testing and quarantine restrictions. This is what France just did here: we aren't allowed to leave the EU or to come back from outside the EU without restrictions. If you are already outside the EU, no worries, you can come home and be free with a handful of negative tests. But now, we can't leave without documented good reasons. Sucks for me, I had two trips cancelled (I wouldn't have been around anyone, so no covid risks) this week and next.

Well, then one of my sons was a contact case at school, he tested positive on Thursday, the rest of us were tested, and my other son is also positive. No symptoms, and my daughter and I are negative.
 
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