These are the ones I bought...

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alvaro_garcia

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Ok here we go...

The ones I bought in the last weeks are different sizes of the following series:

ARCOS: Kyoto, Manhattan, Riviera
WÜSTHOF: Classic, Classic Ikon
ZWILLING J. A. HENCKELS: Pro, Professional S

I'm not an expert, but here there are my two cents on each brand / model:

ARCOS (Made in Spain since 1745):
- Kyoto: Wonderful knives, superb, 58 HRC Nitrum steel, outsandingly well designed and ergonomics (the best one), extraordinarily solid / robust (the thickest blade and very sturdy handle), extremely sharp (possibly the Arcos are the sharpest ones together with the Zwilling J. A. Henckels, but the Wüsthofs are also incredibly sharp, I'm not sure about this statement, all three brands are very good in this regard), hollow blade on the 21 cm chef knife.
- Manhattan: Very good ergonomics, "silk" edge, Nitrum steel, extremely sharp.
- Riviera: Best quality/price ratio of the bunch, Nitrum steel, extremely sharp.

WÜSTHOF (Made in Germany since 1814):
- Classic: Very refinely machined / finished, very solid, very sharp.
- Classic Ikon: As above (Classic) + better ergonomics (handling) and half bolster.

ZWILLING J. A. HENCKELS (Made in Germany since 1731):
- Pro: I'm very disappointed with the Zwilling Pro series, because albeit having a very attractive design and solidly built, but more than half of their knives have their blades twisted / off-set, therefore I'm returning them to be exchanged by new units. Why this? (lack of quality control? or minimizing costs?) However extremely sharp.
- Professional S: Thinner blade, lighter weight, extremely sharp.

I love them all, and also the design of the Zwilling Pro, nonetheless my farourite ones possibly could be the Arcos Kyoto and Wüsthof Classic / Classic Ikon because of their better manufacturing and finish. And if I'd have to pick only one, this would possibly be the Arcos Kyoto because of its extra features: unbeatable ergonomics, hollow blade on the 21 cm chef knife, extra robustness (heavier and thicker blade, even more evident on smaller knives), 58 HRC (like the Wüsthof) Nitrum steel, razor sharp, in addition to its better quality/price ratio (they are cheaper -but not worse- here).

What are your thoughts about these three brands and series? Any favourite and why?
 
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Welcome to the land of knife geeks. While we all share an interest in knives, and especially kitchen knives , most here will prefer Japanese cutlery to the European offerings. But most will have some experience with the Europeans and will be interested in your quest.

My own experience is the Wustie Ikon can be a solid knife though I prefer the Messermeister Meridian Elite or one of the other Elite variants. More knife for the same or less money. No experience with Arcos at all. And Zwilling hasn't made a decent knife since the Four Star series.

We have some Sabatier enthusiasts here, I especially like the K Sab for a knife I can beat on. Have they made your list? And the Gude bread knife is recognized as the mother of all bread knives.

I'll encourage you to try a Japanese Gyuto (chef knife). Japanese Natural Stones in Denmark and Cleancut in Sweden both served the European market well.
 
I started out with a set of K-Sab's. Then saw the light and the only non-Japanese knife I have left is a olivewood handled Sab breadknife.
 
Well, I forgot to mention that here in Europe the European knives are much cheaper than in the USA (we don't have to pay import tax and transportation costs are minimal). Japanese knives on the other hand are much more expensive here than our European knives (import tax + transportation costs) and, obviously, also more expensive than in Japan. In the USA, however, I guess that both European and Japanese knives may be similarly priced. In Japan I bet that European knives are more expensive than Japanese knives.

I already talk with couple of dealers here in Spain and they told me that Japanese knives are certainly good, very very sharp, but so thin blades/edges and strong steel that they are more prone to brittle (chip) and they require expert (or at least very careful) use and professional sharpening. They say that, although their quality is very high, but here in Europe their prices are much higher than in Japan and therefore probably don't justify their quality/price ratio as the European knives do.

That is the reason (higher price / worse quality-price ratio), together with the fact that Japanese knives are lighter with thinner blades (call me mad but I do like more thicker and heavier knives, although I recon that the thinner the blade is, the easier to cut), why I didn't pay too much attention to their knives.

However I'd like to try one or two and I'm open to suggestions, although it's hard to assume that for the price of one Japanese, I can buy two or even three good European.
 
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There are Japanese style knives made in Europe also. You might change your mind after using a thin behind the edge carbon knife, the difference in sharpness is scary. Plenty of good options for stainless knives as well. I sharpen a friend's Wustof and it's a good knife but it's not something I'd use given the choice.
 
There are Japanese style knives made in Europe also. You might change your mind after using a thin behind the edge carbon knife, the difference in sharpness is scary. Plenty of good options for stainless knives as well. I sharpen a friend's Wustof and it's a good knife but it's not something I'd use given the choice.

Could you recommend a good Japanese brand / model? Kai Shun maybe?

*EDIT: I'll probably open a specific thread filling the questionnaire to get advice in case I finally decide to buy a Japo.
 
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Definitely worth filling out the questionnaire for the best help, there are much more experienced people on the forum than me. Personally if I wanted a heftier japanese gyuto right now I would be looking at a Mazaki from japanesenaturalstones. He makes a carbon steel (White #2) and a stainless version. I managed to borrow the carbon steel version from a friend a couple of days ago and it has been very enjoyable to use. Otherwise Gesshin Ginga gyutos seem to be quite popular but much thinner. I haven't used one before so cannot personally comment on performance.
 
Well, as daveb carefully tried to express, most people here on KKF will not share the same enthusiasm with your knife collection as you do. This is no offense, just an explanation why you probably haven't had many answers in this thread. The reason for this simply is that most of us here simply prefer Japanese or custom knives with harder steels and "better" grinds and geometries (whatever that means)... Each of us has his own taste though...
 
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Well, as daveb carefully tried to express, most people here on KKF will not share the same enthusiasm with your knife collection as you do. This is no offense, just an explanation why you probably haven't had many answers in this thread. The reason for this simply is that most of us here simply prefer Japanese or custom knives with harder steels and better grinds and geometries... Each of us has his own taste though...

Oh I see.

Thanks.
 
I have no direct experience with the knives that you have posted except for the Wusties. I still keep my Wusties around as robust beater knives and as knives for non knife knut guests.

When it comes down to it, I have never been able to get X50Cr18V or similar steel even vaguely as sharp as I can get most stainless Japanese style knives, let alone carbon steel knives.

Many Japanese style knives also have cross sectional geometries ("grinds") which allow for either effortless passage through hard foods or for excellent food release. Many also have excellent fit & finish.

To me, Japanese style knives are like Morpeus' red pill:


Once you have taken it your eyes are opened to how good knives can be and you take a deep dive into the rabbit hole of Japanese style knives...
 
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Same as Nemo. I still own a Zwilling. It was my first kitchen knife. I have worked with it for years but since I have fallen into the rabbit hole I use it only when there is danger of abuse. I wouldn't give it away though, but this is for sentimentality reasons only (was a gift from my mother).
 
I'm from EU and love Japanese knives, but I have to admit that I still use Wüsthof Classic Icon chefs knife as my daily workhorse. So you got my vote for it. I love the size of it. It is heavy enough, stable and very easy to sharpen (half bolster). On the other hand my wife can't stand it. It's way too heavy for her.
 
Wusthof was my first chef knife and I'm still using it occasionally now. For sharp knives, I will go for Japanese carbon steel knives, but the handle on the classic ikon is definitely a pleasure to use.
 
Man! Way to make a guy feel welcome!

Alvaro, how long have you had these knives? How much are you using them? How has sharpening them been? Were you satisfied with the factory finish? What about factory edge?
 
The Wustof classic was my first “real” knife I bought, it’s about 35 years old, still in the kitchen getting regular use as a beater—gotta lot of nostalgia in that blade. Indispensable, indestructible, iconic design, familiar in my hand.
 
Man! Way to make a guy feel welcome!

Alvaro, how long have you had these knives? How much are you using them? How has sharpening them been? Were you satisfied with the factory finish? What about factory edge?

Hi NBrewster,

Thanks for your welcome (I did already introduce myself in the presentation sub-forum days ago).

Well, answering your questions one by one:

- So far I was collecting sportive knives and folding knives during years, but I hadn't kitchen knives and really missed them when "cooking". That's why I started buying kitchen knives in the last weeks (less than a month) and I ended up collecting also these type of knives even I won't use them all. I just love having them.

- I don't use them a lot, because I'm not a professional cook, I just use them at home as an occasional cook. There's always something to use them with though: peeling-off fruit, cutting onions, vegetables, slicing fish and meet... but not every day.

- I've never sharpened manually any knife in my life.

- I'm quite satisfied with the factory finish in most cases, although I must admit lack of quality control in some cases (twisted/off-set blades...), especially with the Zwilling J. A. Henckels Pro knives (>50%) which is, in my opinion, unacceptable from any brand, but particularly from this expensive reknowned manufacturer.

- The factory edge is, with some exceptions in some units, very satisfactory indeed, especially with all Arcos knives (they are razor sharp).
 
The Wustof classic was my first “real” knife I bought, it’s about 35 years old, still in the kitchen getting regular use as a beater—gotta lot of nostalgia in that blade. Indispensable, indestructible, iconic design, familiar in my hand.

Wustof classic was also my very first knife using in the commercial kitchen 1o years ago before turning myself into Japanese Knives Nuts.
 
hello
My first japanase knives went home recently but can't open the boxes before 24th of december !
I had them send to my elderly's house to resist the temptation.

Before ,as home cook I had some Sabatier, carbon forged (bone, chief etc..), old ones.
as a petty, waiting for the Munetoshi 165 to come, i'm using a 120mm spanish knive :

http://www.pallaressolsona.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/ganivets-cuina.jpg

very easy to sharpen , good carbon steel for the price (+/- 12 euro ). If you want to try some japanese blade you might start with a petty, if you need one.

Sharpening is my "take 5 head vacuum ", i put light music on (depending on knive and mood, can be heavier )
and for the time i'm in, i'm in my "bubble" , concentrate and relax.

Don't like the german profile, oktober fest belly not for my taste . But as long as you're comfortable in your shoes, be happy with
 
Most of the knives I use are Japanese. However, when I get requests from for kitchen knife recommendations, brands I'll often suggest are Wustof and Mac to friends and family that don't hand sharpen or not great with knife maintenance.
 
My introduction to decent kitchen knives was Wüsthof Classic. They are decent knives, but the profile is meant for rocking, so I have demoted them to "guest" knives.

Like you, I found the Zwilling Four-Star to be lacking in quality. The only knife I owned from that series had a twisted blade, and was quickly sold at a garage sale.

I've no experience with Arcos, but 58 HRC is on the "soft" side for a chef's knife in my opinion. 60+ HRC is better for me.

If you are looking for Japanese performance in a European knife, check out the Herder Windmühle knives. https://www.windmuehlenmesser.de
 
Cooking must be fun, at least for home perspective, and aint fun with dull kitchen knives.
whatever sharp a knive is ootb , you'll need to keep it sharp at some point.

sharpening doesn't take long talking about main european steels , and there are good videos to look at on this forum to start with.
You could perhaps buy a cheap Pallares solsona petty, xc75 carbon blade, a waterstone ,king or other , a fluff-free coton cloth and start your routine ,if you wanna try the carbon path.
Should be less than 40 euros for that all.

cut - dry wipe , cut - dry wipe , install a routine and when needed start sharpening. You'll see a patina coming on your blade, it's normal...and nice.

When you feel confident enough, wear your best outdoor's boots, NON slippery , walk and come close to rabbit hole :eek:
 
Cooking must be fun, at least for home perspective, and aint fun with dull kitchen knives.
whatever sharp a knive is ootb , you'll need to keep it sharp at some point.

sharpening doesn't take long talking about main european steels , and there are good videos to look at on this forum to start with.
You could perhaps buy a cheap Pallares solsona petty, xc75 carbon blade, a waterstone ,king or other , a fluff-free coton cloth and start your routine ,if you wanna try the carbon path.
Should be less than 40 euros for that all.

cut - dry wipe , cut - dry wipe , install a routine and when needed start sharpening. You'll see a patina coming on your blade, it's normal...and nice.

When you feel confident enough, wear your best outdoor's boots, NON slippery , walk and come close to rabbit hole :eek:

Think it depends on the person. I keep me knives sharp with stones—but my mom, who loves cooking and makes amazing meals, keeps her knives frustratingly dull.
 
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