Thinning Stones: Best Two At The Beginning of Progression?

[HumbleHomeCook]

What are your favorite stones for coarse thinning work, especially the lowest and next step up? Not concerned about a polishing end-game so much, just material removal effectiveness, but obviously not being overly aggressive and tearing up the blade. No angle grinders.

If one of them is a bonded diamond I'd sincerely appreciate it if you also commented on what it takes to dress them.

Thanks as always KKF.

 

[M1k3]

I like the SP 120 for stainless cladding.

Sigma 240 for mono.

India coarse for iron clad.

Followed by Super Stone 220, then SG 500 or just SG 500. Depends on how deep the scratches are.

 

[HumbleHomeCook]

I like the SP 120 for stainless cladding.

Sigma 240 for mono.

India coarse for iron clad.

Followed by Super Stone 220, then SG 500 or just SG 500. Depends on how deep the scratches are.

@M1k3 I think you know I love Crystolons and Indias. You use the India with water yeah? Do you find it loads or glazes for this kind of rough work?

 

[BeinM]

debado 200 followed by naniwa pro 400

 

[stringer]

@M1k3 I think you know I love Crystolons and Indias. You use the India with water yeah? Do you find it loads or glazes for this kind of rough work?

I use a sharpening supplies version coarse crystolon with oil. It just cuts better with oil. I have a SP120 BNIB that I am itching to try. I also like the debado 180. And now @milangravier has made me really want to try a venev 80. You can't get too coarse for me and I'm not really someone who cares that much about scratch depth. Deeper the better. That's how you know the metal is moving!

 

[Nemo]

P80 3M Wetordry.

Then P120 3M Wetordry.

Interested to try the Debado.

 

[stringer]

I use a sharpening supplies version coarse crystolon with oil. It just cuts better with oil. I have a SP120 BNIB that I am itching to try. I also like the debado 180. And now @milangravier has made me really want to try a venev 80. You can't get too coarse for me and I'm not really someone who cares that much about scratch depth. Deeper the better. That's how you know the metal is moving!

For second stone I would probably do sg500 (monosteel), sp1000 (cheap stainless), or king deluxe 300 (carbon clad).

 

[HumbleHomeCook]

I use a sharpening supplies version coarse crystolon with oil. It just cuts better with oil. I have a SP120 BNIB that I am itching to try. I also like the debado 180. And now @milangravier has made me really want to try a venev 80. You can't get too coarse for me and I'm not really someone who cares that much about scratch depth. Deeper the better. That's how you know the metal is moving!

I sooooo relate to this!

 

[Cliff]

180 Debado followed by JNS 320

 

[spaceconvoy]

I stick with either a GS500 or King Neo 800 for thinning. I've been preferring the King lately because it has a nice muddiness and much larger surface area, and I don't feel like it's slower (it might be, but I don't feel it). I put deep grooves into a knife that I reprofiled with an SP120 once, and said never again.

But that was much heavier work than regular thinning. Next time I'll go with a series of sandpaper grits to make scratch removal more painless. I just don't do that type of work often enough to justify three low grit stones that I'll use once every two years. (Personally I could not remove the SP120 scratches with my GS500 - this was on soft stainless cladding fwiw)

Unless you're radically altering the knife I feel like 500 or a fast 800 is more sensible for thinning

 

[M1k3]

@M1k3 I think you know I love Crystolons and Indias. You use the India with water yeah? Do you find it loads or glazes for this kind of rough work?

Yes I do. And yes it loads. But nothing a quick run over SiC can't fix. I can get a decent amount of work done before it loads. Oil would definitely extend the amount of usable time though. For me, I bring them back and forth between home and work. Don't feel like traveling with some oil.

 

[tostadas]

I currently use jns 300 as my coarsest, but I think I would want to go one lower for more speed. I find that shapton pro 1k cleans up jns 300 scratches just fine. So I don't need to use up my sg500 as intermediate.

 

[Cliff]

I'll go from JNS320 to SP1K to check my work or JNS800 to hide any problems. I have a SG500 but tend not to use it much.

 

[Mr Kooby Shemayrew]

I like the SP 120 for stainless cladding.

Sigma 240 for mono.

India coarse for iron clad.

Followed by Super Stone 220, then SG 500 or just SG 500. Depends on how deep the scratches are.

I debated recently between the Sigma 240 and the Suehiro Gokumyo 240. I’m a fan of Sigma, have their Select II 400, but I was looking for a very hard low-friability stone. Mixed sources say different things on the friability of their 240 in the Select II series. They also have a 240 in their ceramic series but I could find no reviews and no available sources for this stone anymore.

I ended up ordering the Suehiro Gokumyo 240. It has no written reviews and one video on YouTube gave it a poor review comparing it equally poorly with the Shapton Pro 120 (which is generally highly regarded though).

I put the initial edge on a two straight razors made by a local blacksmith recently. I used the Sigma 400 and I really wished I had something faster. That was a surprisingly large amount of work. Good stone, very good with new powdered steels, but I wouldn’t call it great overall. I’m going to try converting it to an oil stone. The Sigma ceramic 1000 and 2000 are fantastic stones. Love these.

I would like to hear your thoughts and more details on your India and Sigma 240 stones.

 

[M1k3]

I debated recently between the Sigma 240 and the Suehiro Gokumyo 240. I’m a fan of Sigma, have their Select II 400, but I was looking for a very hard low-friability stone. Mixed sources say different things on the friability of their 240 in the Select II series. They also have a 240 in their ceramic series but I could find no reviews and no available sources for this stone anymore.

I ended up ordering the Suehiro Gokumyo 240. It has no written reviews and one video on YouTube gave it a poor review comparing it equally poorly with the Shapton Pro 120 (which is generally highly regarded though).

I put the initial edge on a two straight razors made by a local blacksmith recently. I used the Sigma 400 and I really wished I had something faster. That was a surprisingly large amount of work. Good stone, very good with new powdered steels, but I wouldn’t call it great overall. I’m going to try converting it to an oil stone. The Sigma ceramic 1000 and 2000 are fantastic stones. Love these.

I would like to hear your thoughts and more details on your India and Sigma 240 stones.

The Sigma 240 is pretty friable. Definitely not for precision. But if you're looking for removing metal fast and continuously, it's your stone. Super thirsty, better sealed. And leave the mud on it, helps hold onto water.


India is a totally different stone. Super hard. Not friable without high pressure. Harder than an SP120. Will kill flattening plates. Better when used with oil, works with water though.

On another note, India Fine makes a wicked tomato killing edge.

 

[Mr Kooby Shemayrew]

The Sigma 240 is pretty friable. Definitely not for precision. But if you're looking for removing metal fast and continuously, it's your stone. Super thirsty, better sealed. And leave the mud on it, helps hold onto water.


India is a totally different stone. Super hard. Not friable without high pressure. Harder than an SP120. Will kill flattening plates. Better when used with oil, works with water though.

On another note, India Fine makes a wicked tomato killing edge.

Can you recommend one of the dual grit offerings of the India stones? Also would this be new or used? I’ve seen some small controversy over new vs. vintage.
Thanks!

 

[M1k3]

Can you recommend one of the dual grit offerings of the India stones? Also would this be new or used? I’ve seen some small controversy over new vs. vintage.
Thanks!

I don't know anything about vintage VS new India stones.

Norton Combination India Stone

The Norton Combination India stone is an Oil Stone made with aluminum oxide abrasive. These two-sided stones feature a Coarse India side for establishing an edge and a Fine India side for refining the edge.

www.sharpeningsupplies.com

 

[Mr Kooby Shemayrew]

I don't know anything about vintage VS new India stones.

Norton Combination India Stone

The Norton Combination India stone is an Oil Stone made with aluminum oxide abrasive. These two-sided stones feature a Coarse India side for establishing an edge and a Fine India side for refining the edge.

www.sharpeningsupplies.com

Done deal now. Not that I needed another stone…….. Thanks!

 

[milangravier]

Hey, we are discussing diamond stones here : Venev Diamond Stones: what am I getting into?
I think for the coarse stones they are the best you can use right now. Mostly precision is what it gives compared to all other whetstones.
I have tried a bunch of them and even did a video on it yesterday :

 

[EricEricEric]

Nanohone DR 200 micron

 

[milangravier]

Nanohone DR 200 micron

From my experience, too soft, not that abrasive for a 80 grit. Well mine is grinding like a 320 grit about.

 

[HumbleHomeCook]

Can you recommend one of the dual grit offerings of the India stones? Also would this be new or used? I’ve seen some small controversy over new vs. vintage.
Thanks!

I agree with @M1k3's comments on India's. When I was kid, everyone had Crystolon's and India's so I've been using them for decades. An Arkansas stone was considered fancy.

I really like the SiC Crystolon's for rough work. The JB8 is an excellent combo stone. I really like an India fine for a lot of things, especially pocket knives.

It looks like you already made your selection but just wanted to toss that in.

 

[noj]

Hopefully not off-topic, but I am curious about the pros/cons/differences between using stones vs sandpaper, specifically for the topic of beginning a thinning progression. By sandpaper, I was visualizing paper mounted to a hard flat surface (like kasfly or home made alternative). I'd like to be able to remove high spots, as well as general thinning. I have tried both, and metal removal is painfully slow. 80 grit paper and SP120 for example.

 

[HumbleHomeCook]

Hopefully not off-topic, but I am curious about the pros/cons/differences between using stones vs sandpaper, specifically for the topic of beginning a thinning progression. By sandpaper, I was visualizing paper mounted to a hard flat surface (like kasfly or home made alternative). I'd like to be able to remove high spots, as well as general thinning. I have tried both, and metal removal is painfully slow. 80 grit paper and SP120 for example.

Not off topic at all and sandpaper was recommended in this thread.

I have and sometimes do use sandpaper. For me, it depends on how much I want to hog off. If it's a lot, I often turn to paper (wrapped around a regular stone). I use it wet. Now the thing with paper is, you can use it up fast. Cheap stuff might be wiped out in a few passes. So you have to decide if you want the more effective, longer lasting, but more expensive stuff or just burn through a fair pile of cheap stuff. I tend to go with cheaper as I don't do that kind of work all too often. Harbor Freight paper will be gone in no time so I go a couple steps up.

I suppose I really should try the good stuff.

As to slow, that kind of is what it is given that it is manual. My admittedly limited experience is that there are just faster versions of slow depending on what you choose. that's why you'll see some guys talking about the day-long session they put in or frequently people talking about breaking it up into multiple sessions. Thinning can be a commitment.

Does that help at all?

 

[milangravier]

Hopefully not off-topic, but I am curious about the pros/cons/differences between using stones vs sandpaper, specifically for the topic of beginning a thinning progression. By sandpaper, I was visualizing paper mounted to a hard flat surface (like kasfly or home made alternative). I'd like to be able to remove high spots, as well as general thinning. I have tried both, and metal removal is painfully slow. 80 grit paper and SP120 for example.

I have worked many knives on stones (about 350). It is slow. It is slow.
Working just removing low spots and setting a good geometry is already taking quite some time (about 2 hours for me (when it is a good day )) pushing shinogi up to like 2mm is very long for exemple. (you can add an hour at least)
Be careful not to overgrind at heel, to me, that's the real pain. Leave material there.
I did not try sandpaper. But I tried many stones from 80 to 400 grit and above of course (not the India and Crystolon stuff actually). From my experience, good stones give me more precision, but are they working really faster ? Not really.
Disclaimer : maybe I am a little too picky about geometry, maybe I am slow.

 

[HumbleHomeCook]

I have worked many knives on stones (about 350). It is slow. It is slow.
Working just removing low spots and setting a good geometry is already taking quite some time (about 2 hours for me (when it is a good day )) pushing shinogi up to like 2mm is very long for exemple. (you can add an hour at least)
Be careful not to overgrind at heel, to me, that's the real pain. Leave material there.
I did not try sandpaper. But I tried many stones from 80 to 400 grit and above of course (not the India and Crystolon stuff actually). From my experience, good stones give me more precision, but are they working really faster ? Not really.
Disclaimer : maybe I am a little too picky about geometry, maybe I am slow.

Well sir, from the pictures and videos you post of your work on IG, I'd say you have exactly the perfect amount of picky! Gorgeous stuff.

 

[noj]

Not off topic at all and sandpaper was recommended in this thread.

I have and sometimes do use sandpaper. For me, it depends on how much I want to hog off. If it's a lot, I often turn to paper (wrapped around a regular stone). I use it wet. Now the thing with paper is, you can use it up fast. Cheap stuff might be wiped out in a few passes. So you have to decide if you want the more effective, longer lasting, but more expensive stuff or just burn through a fair pile of cheap stuff. I tend to go with cheaper as I don't do that kind of work all too often. Harbor Freight paper will be gone in no time so I go a couple steps up.

I suppose I really should try the good stuff.

As to slow, that kind of is what it is given that it is manual. My admittedly limited experience is that there are just faster versions of slow depending on what you choose. that's why you'll see some guys talking about the day-long session they put in or frequently people talking about breaking it up into multiple sessions. Thinning can be a commitment.

Does that help at all?

For sandpaper, I used "3M pro grade precision" in the purple package, 80, 150, 220 grit. It is very grippy (if that means fast, I can't tell) at first, but continues to cut for quite a while. I used it dry, and cleaned it often with a plastic bristle brush. The scratch pattern was irregular, almost nothing removed the deep scratches (guessing from the 80 grit) - I tried changing the grinding directions. My last project was good enough to vastly improve the blade, but it was weeks of work, maybe an hour a day. I had to use a lot of pressure, and my fingers would hurt, and the (dry) metal swarf was making my fingers slippery. The SP120 was useless because of clogging**. I have another possible project I already spent even more time on, but still haven't removed the high spots.

** found grinding my cold chisel on it cleaned it up, but haven't used it on a knife again - yet

 

[noj]

I have worked many knives on stones (about 350). It is slow. It is slow.
Working just removing low spots and setting a good geometry is already taking quite some time (about 2 hours for me (when it is a good day )) pushing shinogi up to like 2mm is very long for exemple. (you can add an hour at least)
Be careful not to overgrind at heel, to me, that's the real pain. Leave material there.
I did not try sandpaper. But I tried many stones from 80 to 400 grit and above of course (not the India and Crystolon stuff actually). From my experience, good stones give me more precision, but are they working really faster ? Not really.
Disclaimer : maybe I am a little too picky about geometry, maybe I am slow.

I think I am an order of magnitude slower at the moment. Thanks for the tips and cool videos.

 

[ethompson]

Disclaimer : maybe I am a little too picky about geometry, maybe I am slow.

Impossible !

Setting accurate geometry is a slow process. If you need to remove lots of metal a powered device such as large wheel or belt sander is the only viable answer IMO. If you need to shape a bevel or thin precisely, bench stones are the best option. Personally, I find NSK200 and Debado 180 to be the best for coarse work from my experience. Unless you are altering a grind dramatically or trying to remove a very bad low spot either of those stones should work nicely.

 

[Choppin]

SG220 then SG500

IMO the SG220 has a nice balance between cutting speed and not leaving super deep scratches. the SG500 does a good job at removing them and then you can jump to any midgrit stone (SG2k in my case, very competent in removing the 500 scratches)