Three Sabs compared

[HappyamateurDK]

Got a NOS Sab with a full tang. Felt immediately much more nimble than the modern ones.
From left to right, the unused NOS K-Sabatier, a used Robert Herder 1922, and a recent Dehillerin made by K-Sab. All 230mm.
View attachment 368143

Hey

I'm curious, how is life with a he new old Sab? Any opinions on it yet or are the jury still out?

I'm still waiting for mine to arrive.

 

[Benuser]

Have achieved the sharpening as I like it, a bit asymmetric, and slightly more conservative than with the Herder.
I already said it feels nimble. Not just a question of weight. I have a 25cm NOS Nogent, with a strong forward balance, same weight, and it feels strangely more massive.
There is a subtle difference in profile with the Herder as the latter is just a bit wider, and with identical tips, has slightly more belly.
Not sure I understand the different feeling. Here both superposed with the NOS up.

 

[HappyamateurDK]

Have achieved the sharpening as I like it, a bit asymmetric, and slightly more conservative than with the Herder.
I already said it feels nimble. Not just a question of weight. I have a 25cm NOS Nogent, with a strong forward balance, same weight, and it feels strangely more massive.
There is a subtle difference in profile with the Herder as the latter is just a bit wider, and with identical tips, has slightly more belly.
Not sure I understand the different feeling. Here both superposed with the NOS up. View attachment 370784

Sounds good

What is your impression of the steel, is it notable softer then the herder?

 

[Benuser]

Sounds good

What is your impression of the steel, is it notable softer then the herder?

Of course it is. Closer to the common Herders, other than 1922 and K-series. But again and here confirmed, harder than modern Sabs. I don't know how you sharpen your 1922, but I sharpen the Sabs slightly more conservative, with convexed bevels, highly polished.

 

[HappyamateurDK]

Of course it is. Closer to the common Herders, other than 1922 and K-series. But again and here confirmed, harder than modern Sabs. I don't know how you sharpen your 1922, but I sharpen the Sabs slightly more conservative, with convexed bevels, highly polished.

Well.. my sharpening skills isn't as developed as yours. So I sharpen all my knives in the he same angle. The angle I get from putting my finger between the blade and stone.

 

[Benuser]

Well.. my sharpening skills isn't as developed as yours. So I sharpen all my knives in the he same angle. The angle I get from putting my finger between the blade and stone.

Doesn't have to be such a problem. You're likely to produce the same edge on all your knives. Two suggestions though: don't use the same finger trick — or the same finger — when sharpening a very narrow blade, or you're about to double the angle.
Otherwise, I wouldn't be surprised if you were quite consistent with this method.
For myself, I'm complicating things a bit by moving the edge little by little to the left, and convexing at least the right bevel, aiming to have it form a continuous arc with the right face.

My second suggestion: think about easing the shoulders — where bevel and face meet. With carbons, it can easily be done with a medium fine stone. If you're about the angle to hit it: use your finest stone, and see where it polishes. It makes a huge difference in performance.

 

[Bolek]

Can you make a sketch or drawing please.

 

[Benuser]

Can you make a sketch or drawing please.

Right side — left on the picture: bevel in line with the face. Left side: whatever you need to mitigate steering, if that's your case. This is a very individual choice. If you're used to handling asymmetric knives there's no need to add friction to the left side. Otherwise, you may enhance friction with a straight edge at a much higher angle. I once purposely left a shoulder for someone who had serious problems with steering, probably used to have an overly firm grip. Here a yo-deba to show how I like the right bevel. Don't look at the left one. The choil picture doesn't give a good idea of how it really is. In fact, it's very small.

 

[HappyamateurDK]

So.. i got mine today. And its definitely different then yours. Taller, fatter bolster and no tapper on the tang. I think it's newer then yours. But can't say what years we are talking about. Tried to take a picture of the logo.

 

[Benuser]

I wouldn't be surprised if yours was wider — just by looking at it next to the Herder. And indeed the fingerguard is wider. In that case there's no need to taper the handle to keep balance in place, i.c. neutral. Could you weigh yours?
About the logo: I only can recognise on mine the 'acier fondu', which is a great marketing term, as it doesn't mean anything. There's no steel in the world that hasn't been melt at some stage. But is has been accepted as a trade mark.

 

[HappyamateurDK]

I wouldn't be surprised if yours was wider — just by looking at it next to the Herder. And indeed the fingerguard is wider. In that case there's no need to taper the handle to keep balance in place, i.c. neutral. Could you weigh yours?
About the logo: I only can recognise on mine the 'acier fondu', which is a great marketing term, as it doesn't mean anything. There's no steel in the world that hasn't been melt at some stage. But is has been accepted as a trade mark.

Sure. Its weights 231gr

It's definitely beefier then I thought it would be. But I can see the logo is the same as yours.

Did yours also release some dark/black color on the kitchen towel when washing it? I think it might be from the handle.

 

[Benuser]

I checked the handle. Yes, indeed, it leaves some minimal stain.
I stand corrected about the logo. Had another Sab in mind. On this one it's indeed the same.

What do you intend to do? Return it?

 

[HappyamateurDK]

I checked the handle. Yes, indeed, it leaves some minimal stain.
I stand corrected about the logo. Had another Sab in mind. On this one it's indeed the same.View attachment 371598
What do you intend to do? Return it?

Okay.. mine leaves more then some stain. But it was also the first time wiping it .

Well, I'm not sure. It's not what I thought it would be, but on the other hand the extra hight might be nice for my big fat hands. And the knife still feels in balance. It's also decent thin towards the edge..

How old do you think it is?

 

[Benuser]

Sabatier says they are from the 50-60s. Makes sense, as the French public was very slow in accepting stainless, even when they exported since the 40s, especially to North-America. The French makers also were very late with introducing full tang for the home market. The traditional knife was the Nogent. Our blades were evidently not meant for export: no mention of the country of origin, which is compulsory for export to the States.
In the sixties they started with alternatives to hardwood. Will have nothing to do with the loss of the colonies. Hard rubber and POM have appeared. But even today they have stocks of hardwood, as the Dehillerin proves.

 

[HappyamateurDK]

Sabatier says they are from the 50-60s. Makes sense, as the French public was very slow in accepting stainless, even when they exported since the 40s, especially to North-America. The French makers also were very late with introducing full tang for the home market. The traditional knife was the Nogent. Our blades were evidently not meant for export: no mention of the country of origin, which is compulsory for export to the States.
In the sixties they started with alternatives to hardwood. Will have nothing to do with the loss of the colonies. Hard rubber and POM have appeared. But even today they have stocks of hardwood, as the Dehillerin proves.

I think your right. But I'm also pretty certain that the blade and handle has had some kind of cleaning before being sold. I doubt something that's bin laying for 55-60 years or more would be so clean

It is by the way very dull

 

[Benuser]

I think your right. But I'm also pretty certain that the blade and handle has had some kind of cleaning before being sold. I doubt something that's bin laying for 55-60 years or more would be so clean

It is by the way very dull

IIRC they do perform a light regrinding. Mine came unsharpened, probably after some light breadknifing, in an attempt to solve a little problem close to the fingerguard. There was a burr on both sides. You're better off with no Thiers sharpening. It costs more time and steel to get rid of a dramatically poor inconsistent edge than no edge at all.
You will need a medium-coarse stone, say a 500. Coarser is no problem. Sharpen it slightly more conservative than your Herder. If you normally use your finger for reference, consider using your thumb instead.

 

[HappyamateurDK]

IIRC they do perform a light regrinding. Mine came unsharpened, probably after some light breadknifing, in an attempt to solve a little problem close to the fingerguard. There was a burr on both sides. You're better off with no Thiers sharpening. It costs more time and steel to get rid of a dramatically poor inconsistent edge than no edge at all.
You will need a medium-coarse stone, say a 500. Coarser is no problem. Sharpen it slightly more conservative than your Herder. If you normally use your finger for reference, consider using your thumb instead.

Sounds like a good plan with the thump. I guess an inclusive angle about 40° (20/20) would be a fair aim.

By the way. Do you know what oil would be suited for the black wood handle?

 

[Benuser]

Sounds like a good plan with the thump. I guess an inclusive angle about 40° (20/20) would be a fair aim.

By the way. Do you know what oil would be suited for the black wood handle?

I like to have it convexed. Sounds more complicated than it is. If you're familiar with the notion of a primary, or back-, or relief bevel: imagine you sharpen it with a very low angle, in your terms perhaps with less than your pinky, and only little by little increase it until you've reached the very edge around 20°, or a bit lower, there you are.

Once sharpened you may increase performance by chasing facets.
You probably know the trick to find a sharpening angle with an unknown knife: you put it flat on leather, cardboard or a stone, move it edge leading while raising the spine little by little until the edge bites. The sharpening angle is just a bit lower.

The same idea so get a smooth bevel: I do it on a Chosera 2k. Very gently looking for any resistance. Where you found it, give it one (1) stroke, and restart from the initial, flat position. With a carbon bevel it's quite easy: it takes about five strokes total. With highly abrasion resistant stainless much more.

So far I didn't oil it. Never oiled any handle, and got recently a Herder K- series from @Jovidah who had soaked the plum handle in mineral oil with a fantastic result.

If I were to oil a handle I would surely use foodsafe mineral oil, the same as I use for boards. It doesn't get hard, really penetrates the wood and doesn't feel fat. An alternative to soaking is wrapping it in cling film for a few days. Beewax may work as well if stored in a really warm place to keep the wax fluid. Mineral oil is far more convenient.

 

[deltaplex]

I like to have it convexed. Sounds more complicated than it is. If you're familiar with the notion of a primary, or back-, or relief bevel: imagine you sharpen it with a very low angle, in your terms perhaps with less than your pinky, and only little by little increase it until you've reached the very edge around 20°, or a bit lower, there you are.

Once sharpened you may increase performance by chasing facets.
You probably know the trick to find a sharpening angle with an unknown knife: you put it flat on leather, cardboard or a stone, move it edge leading while raising the spine little by little until the edge bites. The sharpening angle is just a bit lower.

The same idea so get a smooth bevel: I do it on a Chosera 2k. Very gently looking for any resistance. Where you found it, give it one (1) stroke, and restart from the initial, flat position. With a carbon bevel it's quite easy: it takes about five strokes total. With highly abrasion resistant stainless much more.

So far I didn't oil it. Never oiled any handle, and got recently a Herder K- series from @Jovidah who had soaked the plum handle in mineral oil with a fantastic result.

If I were to oil a handle I would surely use foodsafe mineral oil, the same as I use for boards. It doesn't get hard, really penetrates the wood and doesn't feel fat. An alternative to soaking is wrapping it in cling film for a few days. Beewax may work as well if stored in a really warm place to keep the wax fluid. Mineral oil is far more convenient.

Mineral oil mixed with beeswax is my standard handle/board maintenance oil

 

[sanmateo]

Mineral oil mixed with beeswax is my standard handle/board maintenance oil

what ratio do you use for beeswax to mineral oil?

 

[deltaplex]

what ratio do you use for beeswax to mineral oil?

It's probably close to 50/50 by weight, mixed when warm, can spread on just fine when room temp.

 

[HappyamateurDK]

I like to have it convexed. Sounds more complicated than it is. If you're familiar with the notion of a primary, or back-, or relief bevel: imagine you sharpen it with a very low angle, in your terms perhaps with less than your pinky, and only little by little increase it until you've reached the very edge around 20°, or a bit lower, there you are.

Once sharpened you may increase performance by chasing facets.
You probably know the trick to find a sharpening angle with an unknown knife: you put it flat on leather, cardboard or a stone, move it edge leading while raising the spine little by little until the edge bites. The sharpening angle is just a bit lower.

The same idea so get a smooth bevel: I do it on a Chosera 2k. Very gently looking for any resistance. Where you found it, give it one (1) stroke, and restart from the initial, flat position. With a carbon bevel it's quite easy: it takes about five strokes total. With highly abrasion resistant stainless much more.

So far I didn't oil it. Never oiled any handle, and got recently a Herder K- series from @Jovidah who had soaked the plum handle in mineral oil with a fantastic result.

If I were to oil a handle I would surely use foodsafe mineral oil, the same as I use for boards. It doesn't get hard, really penetrates the wood and doesn't feel fat. An alternative to soaking is wrapping it in cling film for a few days. Beewax may work as well if stored in a really warm place to keep the wax fluid. Mineral oil is far more convenient.

Thanks for your advice I will try to follow your procedure and hope my skills will keep up.

 

[Bolek]

Right side — left on the picture:

Thanks a lot
Very interesting will try
Now I KNOW which side is which

 

[Benuser]

Thanks a lot
Very interesting will try
Now I KNOW which side is which

Sure you know how to read a choil shot, but novices might get confused — as we all have been, some time ago.

I should have added that over time I move the Sab edges a bit to the left. Right side on the picture, @Bolek, LOL. I can do so, because I'm a right-hander and the only user. In the end, all my yo-knives get a Misono-geometry. It's a long time ago I had steering problems. Since, my wrist compensates. With some use, you get a highly asymmetric blade like a hankotsu or honesuki cutting straight, even without thinking about it. Only truly symmetric blades feel awkward.

 

[HappyamateurDK]

I like to have it convexed. Sounds more complicated than it is. If you're familiar with the notion of a primary, or back-, or relief bevel: imagine you sharpen it with a very low angle, in your terms perhaps with less than your pinky, and only little by little increase it until you've reached the very edge around 20°, or a bit lower, there you are.

Once sharpened you may increase performance by chasing facets.
You probably know the trick to find a sharpening angle with an unknown knife: you put it flat on leather, cardboard or a stone, move it edge leading while raising the spine little by little until the edge bites. The sharpening angle is just a bit lower.

The same idea so get a smooth bevel: I do it on a Chosera 2k. Very gently looking for any resistance. Where you found it, give it one (1) stroke, and restart from the initial, flat position. With a carbon bevel it's quite easy: it takes about five strokes total. With highly abrasion resistant stainless much more.

So far I didn't oil it. Never oiled any handle, and got recently a Herder K- series from @Jovidah who had soaked the plum handle in mineral oil with a fantastic result.

If I were to oil a handle I would surely use foodsafe mineral oil, the same as I use for boards. It doesn't get hard, really penetrates the wood and doesn't feel fat. An alternative to soaking is wrapping it in cling film for a few days. Beewax may work as well if stored in a really warm place to keep the wax fluid. Mineral oil is far more convenient.

So.. i tried following your proces, and I would say it turned out pretty descent, it cuts paper towel with ease now. But still wedge a bit in thick carrots and large potatoes.

I might try to thin it a bit later, but I'm not sure yet. Maybe i keep it a bit more workhorse like it is now.

 

[Benuser]

So.. i tried following your proces, and I would say it turned out pretty descent, it cuts paper towel with ease now. But still wedge a bit in thick carrots and large potatoes.

I might try to thin it a bit later, but I'm not sure yet. Maybe i keep it a bit more workhorse like it is now.

Another option were to thin only the front section — say the last third of the blade. Corresponds to the blade's distal taper. And the section is already quite flat on the right side, and often even concave on the left side.

Anyway, nobody would suggest to thin heavily the first third, which is purposely rather fat to ease food release. Remember, these blades are made with a 'guillotine and slice'-motion in mind.

Attack with the front going oblique through the food and then move the blade forward.

 

[sanmateo]

….
I already said it feels nimble. Not just a question of weight. I have a 25cm NOS Nogent, with a strong forward balance, same weight, and it feels strangely more massive.
There is a subtle difference in profile with the Herder as the latter is just a bit wider, and with identical tips, has slightly more belly.
Not sure I understand the different feeling. Here both superposed with the NOS up.

You're absolutely correct — the 25cm is much more massive, a whopping 40% heavier than the 23cm. They must have been targeted for completely different uses.

(I couldn't decide and ordered both the 23cm and 25cm NOS. They arrived today.)

	Length (nominal)	Height	Spine at Bolster	Spine halfway	1cm from Tip	Weight
NOS K. Sab 25cm	250mm	47.5	4.6mm	2.5mm	1.4mm	236 g
NOS K. Sab 23cm	230mm	44.3	3.7mm	1.4mm	0.7mm	168 g
Herder 1922	230mm	45.6	3.5mm	2.5mm	0.8mm	208 g
Zwilling 4 Star	230mm	46.5	4.5mm	2.6mm	0.8mm	260 g

NOS K. Sab have much flatter profile than either Windmühlenmesser or Z. Henckels

Both NOS K. Sabs have slightly bent blades, and neither handle aligns quite perfect with the blade, but they're more than usable. Both blades are slightly convex on the left side and flat on the right :-/

You can see how thick the 25cm K. Sab is all the way up to the tip. The 23cm K. Sab on the other hand thins most aggressively before the midpoint, making it really flexible. No doubt all these NOS knives sat in a warehouse for 50 years after failing quality control

Both show nice tapered tangs. The handle wood is very dark and very pretty. Probably some endangered tropical hardwood. (edit: on closer inspection I think they're dyed beechwood)

Both came with lightly ground bevels, but unsharpened; like @Benuser, I prefer this.

 

[Benuser]

You're absolutely correct — the 25cm is much more massive, a whopping 40% heavier than the 23cm. They must have been targeted for completely different uses.

(I couldn't decide and ordered both the 23cm and 25cm NOS. They arrived today.)

	Length (nominal)	Height	Spine at Bolster	Spine halfway	1cm from Tip	Weight
NOS K. Sab 25cm	250mm	47.5	4.6mm	2.5mm	1.4mm	236 g
NOS K. Sab 23cm	230mm	44.3	3.7mm	1.4mm	0.7mm	168 g
Herder 1922	230mm	45.6	3.5mm	2.5mm	0.8mm	208 g
Zwilling 4 Star	230mm	46.5	4.5mm	2.6mm	0.8mm	260 g

NOS K. Sab have much flatter profile than either Windmühlenmesser or Z. Henckels
View attachment 373951


Both NOS K. Sabs have slightly bent blades, and neither handle aligns quite perfect with the blade, but they're more than usable. Both blades are slightly convex on the left side and flat on the right :-/

You can see how thick the 25cm K. Sab is all the way up to the tip. The 23cm K. Sab on the other hand thins most aggressively before the midpoint, making it really flexible. No doubt all these NOS knives sat in a warehouse for 50 years after failing quality control

Both show nice tapered tangs. The handle wood is very dark and very pretty. Probably some endangered tropical hardwood. (edit: on closer inspection I think they're dyed beechwood)
View attachment 373952

Both came with lightly ground bevels, but unsharpened; like @Benuser, I prefer this.

Thanks for your so well documented, thorough report!
A few remarks.

Glad you've got a light-weight 23!
As I said somewhere else, if you order a NOS with Sabatier, the only thing you're sure about is the blade's length. One of the numerous examples of the Thiers lottery.
Our friend @HappyamateurDK got a fat one, wider, with a heavier blade and for that reason no need of tapering the tang.

About their geometry, I have to precise your point. With closer inspection you will see that the right side is overall very slightly convexed, and the left one is flatter, except for the last inch, where it has a steep curve as it has to join the well-centered edge.

My remark about the 25 feeling much more massive was about a 25 Nogent of 168g, with a strong forward balance, compared with my new 23 full tang of about 170g, and an almost neutral balance.
I'm sure it won't feel less different with your full tang 25 with its full weight.

Both comfirm your observation about a different use the maker had in mind. On a side note: we see the same with the most humble Japanese production: a 240 and a 210 having a totally different character. Not as with Wüsthof e.a. where longer knives are just longer, have the same profile, geometry and handle. A different balance though as the handle and bolster are identical. Balance isn't their first concern.

I totally agree about your findings when comparing the Herder and Sab profile. The differences are small at first sight, but very obvious when working. 2mm here or there make a totally different feeling and behaviour, if one can say so.

About the used wood: you may be right. My assumption it was bubinga was based on a NOS bolsterless slicer which was explicitly described as bubinga, and with a closer look, is indeed different. I'm not going to carve a piece of both to be sure. Here though a photo that shows the difference. In real life it's less obvious. The one underneath is the bubinga slicer.

Again, thanks a lot for your post.

 

[sanmateo]

@Benuser do you find you're enjoying cooking with the vintage Sabs much, or you enjoy keeping them as more of an historic curiosity?

I could probably do some work on my 25 and get it in a good shape—there's plenty of metal to work with! But I don't know if it would be quite worth the time.

The 23cm is so thin and whippy I'll put a nice edge on it and test it out, but I don't think it will offer any advantage over my favorite ashi hamono.

Would any of my fellow Americans be interested in a vintage sab pass-around?

 

[Benuser]

They are interesting knives if you want to understand how the Japanese, the German and the Britons have developed their knives. The Sabatier Nogent was the standard at the end of the 19th century, and has been adopted by all makers in the world, changing it little by little to adapt it to the local habits and techniques. See a Henckels / Zwilling from 1910 and you would hardly tell the difference with a French knife.

I like using them for their agility, and for sentimental reasons as well. Half of my family is French, have travelled a lot in France at a time where our NOS were very common. For the same reason my pepper mill is a Peugeot. If I had the place and money I bought a restored Pleyel or Érard grand.

Availability of NOS fluctuates a lot. Besides, there's a crazy market of used vintages. Almost all fllee markets of France and Navarra have been ransacked by clever Californian salesmen who wanted us to believe modern steel is inferior.

It is not. Especially with knives from the twenties, you may encounter crazy moving clustering carbides, due to some impurity. Not just with Sabs: Germans as well — they are all from the same German steel from Swedish ore. I don't know if the ore is to blame or something with Krupp's production process. Expect it to happen with one out of ten vintages. If it appears at the edge, you may sharpen it away. No fun, but doable. If it is 1cm deaper — 3/8" — it will cause breakage, and the knife is lost.

I do use the Sabs in my humble home kitchen. Even the 25cm, when I feel that a hard steel is at risk. E.g. with almost frozen meat. My butcher keeps everything at 2°C — 35.6°F. Sometimes it's a bit close.

In general I have a rotation, how crazy it may sound: I use a Misono for a few days, then a Herder, then a Sab and a lot more.

Is a NOS Sab a serious option for someone looking for a good carbon chef's? I'm not sure. There are technically better knives, sometimes for less money. I got at Amazon an evidently displaced 210 carbon by Kanetsune — a brand, no maker — for €55, here in Europe, including VAT. It was unsharpened — well it got a chisel grind — and it took little time to turn it into one of my best 210.

I can't rationally advice knives that so often come with serious flaws as the Sab NOS. Bends, warps, crazy edges, and with the Nogents the moving carbide risk.

You, @HappyamateurDK and I all bought within less than three weeks the same 23 full tang, and got different knives.

Sadly, Japanese makers of affordable yo-gyutos all went into CNC production, instead of grinding by hand. Twenty years ago a Misono Dragon came nail flexing out of the box. Now it is about twice as thick behind the edge. It takes a few hours to correct it without powered tools.

An alternative is in Japanese NOS of thirty, forty years ago. JNS has them from time to time. They were hand-ground, really light and thin, even the larger sizes, and Maksim gives them a last sharpening before sending. Of course, a forty years old handle won't look like new. But nothing dramatic. Good prices, but small stocks. Just a few of them, so act in time.

No, no passaround. Makes little sense with knives that require a bit of care. I've participated in a few passarounds and more often than not the edge came run-down after a few predecessors. Rock-chop with a Sab on a poly board, or even better, apply some walking, and it requires at least a touching-up. They get crazy sharp but should be handled with some elementary care.