Tormek sharpener thoughts?

[KJDedge]

I started using a wicked edge on my kitchen knives….now using stones freehand basis…. Feel like I am finally getting decent results but honestly totally unsure of the angle or consistency of the angle but the knives turn out sharp…
Saw the Tormek wheel grinder system…
Should I consider going to that instead of hand stones?? My skill level takes a bit of time on the stones… the knife makers all sharpen on a wheel system it seems…
This is probably a topic with a range of opinions but I would love to hear your feedback as many of you are very good sharpeners

 

[miggus]

I'm not a good sharpener by a long shot, but I'm going to give my opinion anyways

Why exactly do you want to move away from the wicked edge in the first place?

I see two scenarios:
a) You just want sharp knives as easily as possible, but are somehow dissatisfied with the wicked edge.
b) You want to keep getting better at sharpening, develop intuition and understanding for this craft and put in some practice to achieve it.
c) something else

If you have money and room to spare, there is nothing inherently wrong with the Tormek. They're supposed to be very nice machines. I think their main appeal though is that if you have many knives to sharpen, it will simply take too long if you do it by hand on a whetstone. So they take high-volume tasks and accerlerate them greatly.

If you're a home cook, it's probably more efficient to learn doing it on stones. The thing is: If you want really good results, you will have to acquire the same skills one way or another.

I mean yeah, consistency is one of the key factors for a good edge, and the guide will help with that, so you will get even results more quickly. But the wicked edge will do that already. You practically only win a motor with that upgrade.

But the second big topic is deburring. Depending on the steel, that can be not so easy, and I don't think sharpening systems are very good at providing this without some skill by the user. (Haven't used them, so correct me if I'm wrong). But unless I've missed something, you will need to get to detect and remove burrs efficiently for really good edges. I doubt this can be done without some practice.

So the Tormek won't do that for you and those things are expensive. If you enjoy having one - sure, have fun. But you certainly don't need it. If you have the budget, get a few nice stones and a strop and learn to use them. It's a rewarding journey, and after a while, you can bring your knives back quickly.

Now let's see what the good sharpeners will say to this.

 

[Brian Weekley]

I’ve had a Tormek T8 for several years T7 before that. I won’t call myself a professional alongside some of my fellow KKF members but I’ve sharpened for family, friends, others and myself for over 60 years.

Cutting to the conclusion … my Tormek T8 isn’t nearly as quick, accurate and satisfying as hand sharpening kitchen knives on stones. My advice is to save your money if your purpose is to sharpen kitchen knives.

If your objective is sharpening wood working tools and screwdrivers the Tormek is hard to beat.

The Tormek is capable of setting an accurate cutting angle. With practice you will be able to sharpen to that angle on your Tormek. With ongoing use you will be able to maintain that skill. In stock form the Tormek will be able to grind at 400 or 1000 grit using a unique conditioning method on the grinding wheel. I paid an extra $400 and bought a 4000 grit “Japanese water wheel“ for my Tormek. Many optional wheels are available from Tormek at extra cost. With sharpening attachments and extra wheels you could easily double the cost of your Tormek. IMO none of this will make you consistently better at putting an edge on a kitchen knife than will developing your skills on stones …. And you will save a lot of money in the process.

But you will easily have the nicest screw drive tips amongst your friends and family.

The Tormek will deburr … sort of. The leather covered wheel works fine and takes polishing compound well. I don’t find the de-burring process on kitchen knives is as subtle as I would like it and I’m known to use several deburring compounds on my knives. The Tormek doesn’t offer an equivalent for “stropping” a blade but I guess you could maintain your strops and compounds as well as the Tormek. It just seems easier to incorporate this with sharpening on stone … your choice.

My biggest reservation in recommending use of the Tormek to sharpen kitchen knives is, as with any powered device, it’s potentially dangerous. It isn’t faster (not nearly so) and it doesn’t provide a better edge when compared to hand sharpening on stones. One caution and that is, as with all powered devices, it is seriously capable of destroying an edge in short order. It can do a lot of damage in a short period of time if you don’t pay attention. This seems less of a possibility with wood working tools and screwdrivers.

In summary … stick with the stones for your kitchen knives. Put in the time and practice and you will get great results …… and will be viewed as a god by some.

 

[Pie]

but the knives turn out sharp…

This here is the key. If it’s sharp enough for you I say stick with the stones. Hands down the winner for therapeutic value as well as the ability to mess with the edge without setting anything up.

 

[mengwong]

Knife Deburring 6th edition: Science behind the lasting razor edge will help inform your decision.

 

[HumbleHomeCook]

I started using a wicked edge on my kitchen knives….now using stones freehand basis…. Feel like I am finally getting decent results but honestly totally unsure of the angle or consistency of the angle but the knives turn out sharp…
Saw the Tormek wheel grinder system…
Should I consider going to that instead of hand stones?? My skill level takes a bit of time on the stones… the knife makers all sharpen on a wheel system it seems…
This is probably a topic with a range of opinions but I would love to hear your feedback as many of you are very good sharpeners

Put the WE away, forget caring about edge angle, continue using and learning and improving free hand.

Then one day you'll be wondering what do with that WE you haven't used in XX years.

I'm gifting my extensive and customized KME setup to my SIL for Christmas. He expressed interest in it some months ago and I can't remember the last time I used it.

 

[Jeff]

I started using a wicked edge on my kitchen knives….now using stones freehand basis…. Feel like I am finally getting decent results but honestly totally unsure of the angle or consistency of the angle but the knives turn out sharp…
Saw the Tormek wheel grinder system…
Should I consider going to that instead of hand stones?? My skill level takes a bit of time on the stones… the knife makers all sharpen on a wheel system it seems…
This is probably a topic with a range of opinions but I would love to hear your feedback as many of you are very good sharpeners

I have a:
1. WickedEdge (WEPS)
2. Tormek T-8
3. EdgePro Apex
4. TSProf K03
5. SharpMaker (Spyderco)
6. ChefsChoice Electric (several models) and
7. Freehand Stones

All chasing the dragon for the perfect edge.

Having so many has the tendency to make one a jack of all and a master of none.

Each different system has a learning curve and a ton of technique. … As well as pros & cons.

My “go to” is the TSProf. If it has a drawback it is all the fiddling to adjust the angle EACH TIME A STONE IS CHANGED.

Tormek produces a concave edge ON EVERY EDGE because of the physics of sharpening on the circumference of a round surface. ((Just think how much effort goes into flattening a sharpening stone!

As for WEPS, it is a great system and Clay, the owner, san amazing man with a very ethical
business model. He will
always be there for you.

Having said that, I personally find the sharpening motion very awkward and tiring. I just never got comfortable with it when doing multiple knives.

I am contemplating a JIGS from
Jende Industries. It
is very similar to the TsProf and I understand it might have a superior angle
mechanism.

The nice thing about a calibrated system is that you can keep a spreadsheet on angles
and stones for each knife.
So, when you find the perfect edge for each of your knives you can look it up and repeat wirh hardly any metal
removal! Consistency and repeatability is a comforting thing for me.

 

[Benuser]

A side note by a hand sharpener: repeatability doesn't mean much if meanwhile the conditions have changed, and that's exactly what's happening when sharpening. Sharpening is not putting an edge at the end of a piece of steel. The idea is to reproduce a previous configuration in another place, as the edge has moved towards the spine where it requires thinning behind the edge before even thinking about the final very edge.
A new knife may get a few full sharpenings, but after that, touching up is all that's needed in a home setting. Only after a year or so a new full sharpening is needed: starting with a coarse stone at the lowest possible angle, far behind the edge, and raising the spine little by little, until the very edge got reached. I hardly care whether that's at 10.4 or 11.6°. I want at least the right bevel to be in line with the right face, forming a continuous arc.
If I had to sharpen every week 20 heavily damaged Victorinox I may consider another equipment, but that isn't my case.

 

[coxhaus]

If you want something faster at sharpening knives, then use a belt sharpening system. There are lots out there. I use a Worksharp Ken Onion.
There is a small learning curve, but the Ken Onion is easy. There are plenty of uTube videos out there you can watch.

 

[Benuser]

If you want something faster at sharpening knives, then use a belt sharpening system. There are lots out there. I use a Worksharp Ken Onion.
There is a small learning curve, but the Ken Onion is easy. There are plenty of uTube videos out there you can watch.

Does it allow real thinning? With an average Japanese Western, I start a full sharpening at 3mm above the spine on the right side, and a little less on the left one. For real thinning I go even lower, putting the blade flat on the stone and use pressure where thinning is wanted.

 

[Jeff]

A side note by a hand sharpener: repeatability doesn't mean much if meanwhile the conditions have changed, and that's exactly what's happening when sharpening. Sharpening is not putting an edge at the end of a piece of steel. The idea is to reproduce a previous configuration in another place, as the edge has moved towards the spine where it requires thinning behind the edge before even thinking about the final very edge.
A new knife may get a few full sharpenings, but after that, touching up is all that's needed in a home setting. Only after a year or so a new full sharpening is needed: starting with a coarse stone at the lowest possible angle, far behind the edge, and raising the spine little by little, until the very edge got reached. I hardly care whether that's at 10.4 or 11.6°. I want at least the right bevel to be in line with the right face, forming a continuous arc.
If I had to sharpen every week 20 heavily damaged Victorinox I may consider another equipment, but that isn't my case.

Respectfully disagree.

Repeatability DOES matter because it permits removal of very little steel. That means one can get more sharpenings BEFORE THINNING AND GEOMETRY RECONFIGURATION IS NECESSARY.

But I get your point, the edge is always changing. Repeatability hels
minimize that.

 

[Benuser]

Respectfully disagree.

Repeatability DOES matter because it permits removal of very little steel. That means one can get more sharpenings BEFORE THINNING AND GEOMETRY RECONFIGURATION IS NECESSARY.

But I get your point, the edge is always changing. Repeatability hels
minimize that.

That's why I remain touching up with Belgian Brocken as long as possible. Full sharpenings are rather rare.
Not thinning and restoring the previous geometry while seriously sharpening will result in performance loss by thickening behind the edge, wedging and steering. I hardly care about the loss of material while thinning, as long as the very edge remains untouched and no width is being lost. By touching up with a very fine stone none of this is to be feared.

 

[BarryMM]

I have a Tormek T8. I get knives very sharp with the provided stone and stropping. I probably can get it even sharper if I would use the angle method of Knife grinders Australia with their software and hardware. Unfortunately it is slow. I'm still trying to find a way to use it in a professional setting.
With the grading between stones and clamp changing if you have a bunch of knives, it takes about 8-12 minutes per knife, depending on the state of the knife. It would be quicker with a coarse cbn wheel but I don't have it.
With whetstones I average about 10 minutes, on location, in a kitchen. So for just knives it is perhaps overkill? What I don't like is the way the edge looks after sharpening on the Tormek, it is too crisp. I like convex. But that is just me. Still, they get plenty sharp on the T8.

 

[Brian Weekley]

IMO, there is no doubt that the Tormek and many other methods including a pull through sharpener will get a knife “sharp enough“ to cut. Goodness, the average person is satisfied cutting with a $25 knife “sharpened” on a steel using the Gordon Ramsay method of wailing away knife to steel like a demon. That really isn’t the point. The OP solicited advice on the prospect of using the Tormek T8 to advance and improve his sharpening results over his results with stones. I have a T8 and happily use it to sharpen Wustoff‘s and Victorinox’s, German and Swiss production knives. They started life with a machine made edge and I’m happy to continue their life that way, although I may use a stone and strop for a quick touch up after the T8 to refine the edge a bit.

Hand made kitchen knives are different. To me and many, creating and maintaining an edge on such knives is a bit of a zen like experience. That’s why I kept at it over the years … it certainly wasn’t my day job. The type of edge I want to create and maintain on this class of knives can only be done IMO on stones. The same with thinning. Alex Horn recently did an IG post on the attributes of the final edge on a knife … a final edge as thin and uniform as a single hair. His post captures the spirit of what I’m talking about when I recommended to the OP that based on my experience he would be better off developing his skills on the stones over purchasing a T8. It’s worth searching for and attaining that skill level as an end unto itself on the stones as opposed to a machine made edge on the T8.

Why … just because … and to a few you will be a god.

 

[BarryMM]

Don't underestimate a Tormek, you can get sub 100 bess scores with proper deburring.

Hand made kitchen knives are different. To me and many, creating and maintaining an edge on such knives is a bit of a zen like experience.

Totally agree. That's why I love sharpening on whetstones.

 

[HumbleHomeCook]

"We're going over to mom's and making her lunch/dinner."

I grab my SP320 or SG500 and we're off.

Can't do that with a Tormek.

 

[miggus]

I'm interested in hearing what reasons make @KJDedge want to upgrade / change systems

 

[KJDedge]

1) was thinking time wise but it sounds like it’s not any quicker on a Tormek
2) uncertainty if I have good enough technique to properly maintain edge…
ie…. I have never “thinned” behind the edge…. Just have tried to maintain a sharp edge…. Not sure how I would thin a nice Damascus anyway as it seems it would ruin the finish….tried it on a beater wusthof and it scratched it up pretty good ….

It seems the majority opinion is to stay with the stones and keep on trying to improve technique…..

 

[coxhaus]

Does it allow real thinning? With an average Japanese Western, I start a full sharpening at 3mm above the spine on the right side, and a little less on the left one. For real thinning I go even lower, putting the blade flat on the stone and use pressure where thinning is wanted.

I don't thin my knives. If you can thin with a belt sharpener, then yes. Ken Onion has an adapter which allows full free hand sharping. I don't see why you could not do it.

 

[HumbleHomeCook]

1) was thinking time wise but it sounds like it’s not any quicker on a Tormek
2) uncertainty if I have good enough technique to properly maintain edge…
ie…. I have never “thinned” behind the edge…. Just have tried to maintain a sharp edge…. Not sure how I would thin a nice Damascus anyway as it seems it would ruin the finish….tried it on a beater wusthof and it scratched it up pretty good ….

It seems the majority opinion is to stay with the stones and keep on trying to improve technique…..

Thinning is really just super low angle sharpening.

You will scratch things up. That's when the polishers take off.

Yes, you are likely to mess up Damascus.

It's just the way of things.

 

[BarryMM]

This is a start:
Peter is a very good sharpener. Check out his channel.

 

[Benuser]

This is a start:
Peter is a very good sharpener. Check out his channel.

An excellent introduction. Now, for those who don't thin: this is what happens when sharpening at a given angle without thinning. The blade gets crazy thick behind the edge, more force will be required to get it through dense food, and the contact with the board will be more violent — an essential factor in edge retention.

 

[Benuser]

I don't thin my knives.

I hope at least you knock off the shoulders.

 

[coxhaus]

An excellent introduction. Now, for those who don't thin: this is what happens when sharpening at a given angle without thinning. The blade gets crazy thick behind the edge, more force will be required to get it through dense food, and the contact with the board will be more violent — an essential factor in edge retention. View attachment 215609

It sounds reasonable but the picture is way bigger than a real knife. The picture is way over exaggerated. In real life it is such a small difference I am not sure it really matters. I doubt you could tell the difference in one of my old knives and a new one if you used it. Yes, maybe if you wear a big chef knife all the way down. I have fifty-year-old knives and they are worn less than 1/8 of an inch away. The old Henckels I have, seem to last for me any way. I only sharpen when they need it which is when they won't cut a tomato well.

I see no reason to thin. Carbon knives wear out too fast, so I see your point of view. I had carbon knives many years ago. I was always sharpening them. There are too many issues in the kitchen for me so I got rid of them. I don't have a single carbon steel kitchen knife any more. I have pocket knives and hunting knives that are carbon steel, way too many. I have lots of hunting knives and fishing knives made out of different steels. I just don't chase steel anymore. Magnacut steel looks nice, and I like hearing the stories.

And I agree carbon steel will get sharper than stainless steel. In terms of kitchen duty, it makes no difference as the bad of carbon steel offsets the one good feature. I can see knife guys chasing that sharpness.

 

[coxhaus]

This is a start:
Peter is a very good sharpener. Check out his channel.

I have 50-year-old Henckel 4-star chef knives that are not worn as much as he is using for thinning his knife. So, I am not sure it is a good thing. He may be wearing the steel out faster. I have heard so many people state on this forum the Henckels steel will not support a 15-degree angle, so I assume it because they are thinning the knife. I have no issues using a 15-degree angle on my Henckels 4-star knives. I only sharpen 2 to 3 times a year.

Looking at the blade it kind of looks like a Henckels knife but the steel looks too shiny for a Henckels 4-star knife. The 5-star Henckels would have a different handle.

I have never thinned a knife hunting, fishing, kitchen or pocketknife. I have been sharpening for over 60 years not that I am great, but I end up with sharp enough knife. The Worksharp Ken Onion sharpener made it so easy and fast to sharpen my knives. I don't feel like I am missing anything.

I think thinning is just a different philosophy for sharpening which is being outdated with the super steels.

 

[Benuser]

The loss of 1/8" of width may seem very little, and it certainly is, but the thickness behind the edge is likely to have doubled.
As a rule of thumb I use 0.2mm thickness above the bevels, 0.5mm at 5mm from there, and 1mm at 10mm. These are more or less what you may expect with a proper knife for general usage involving board contact. Say a Robert Herder 1922. Or like carbon Misonos used to be.
For all kind of reasons modern German stainless are already brand new almost twice as thick behind the edge. And these are the knives where you don't remove the shoulders? I wonder how they perform with hard food.
The modern V-edges have only been introduced because of the cheap production. If low angles are chosen, it's about marketing. The last brand new Wüsthofs I've seen came from the factory with the most spectacular wire edges. Simply because Krupp's 4116 doesn't take a 13dps edge.
Much work to correct it? Depending on the tools. As the steel is highly abrasion resistant I start with a very coarse stone. With my latest Burgvogel I started on a SG220 at 10mm. A good occasion to get rid of the shining buffed factory edge where I could see with a loupe the diamond grooves. It will never be a light weight, but that isn't where I bought it for. But it works much smoother than OOTB.
Carbons wearing out so fast? Not if you maintain them by touching up on your finest stone. My Sabs or Herders get a Belgian Blue, Arkansas, Naniwa Junpaku 8k or a Shapton 12k, depending on my mood. In a home setting they rarely require a full sharpening.

 

[The_Real_Self]

IMO, you can easily sharpen many knives to one on a good coarse benchstone.... IF you are tryin

Respectfully disagree.

Repeatability DOES matter because it permits removal of very little steel. That means one can get more sharpenings BEFORE THINNING AND GEOMETRY RECONFIGURATION IS NECESSARY.

But I get your point, the edge is always changing. Repeatability hels
minimize that.

This actually doesn't really work out in real life experience that I have. What really allows less steel removal is never grinding to a burr, something that is almost impossible to do on a Tormek as it removes rapidly compared to stones. The nice thing about stones is it's very easy to simply grind perpendicular to stone to put a faint 'plateau' on the edge and then grind until the light stops reflecting off the top of that plateau. At that point it's just a matter of picking your finishing stone for the apex and you're done.

 

[coxhaus]

The big Henckels chef 4-star and Wusthof knives are heavy, and they have weight to power through food. Kind of like a cleaver but not so heavy and damaging to a cutting board. It is just different style of cutting. I don't understand how people use cleavers as I don't like them.

I understand you like carbon steel and doing what works for you. It just won't be me using carbon steel in my kitchen. I have a big Henckels chef's 11.5 inch I use for cutting through chicken bones and I try to stick to just one knife if I can. I don't see this happening with thin carbon steel knives even long ones. Maybe you use a cleaver. Just different ways to accomplish the same task. I try to use a Henckels or Wusthof 10-inch chef's knife for all my cutting in the kitchen.

 

[Jeff]

IMO, you can easily sharpen many knives to one on a good coarse benchstone.... IF you are tryin


This actually doesn't really work out in real life experience that I have. What really allows less steel removal is never grinding to a burr, something that is almost impossible to do on a Tormek as it removes rapidly compared to stones. The nice thing about stones is it's very easy to simply grind perpendicular to stone to put a faint 'plateau' on the edge and then grind until the light stops reflecting off the top of that plateau. At that point it's just a matter of picking your finishing stone for the apex and you're done.

AGREED. Tormek, or any power grinder removes material at a high rate.

I was referring to a manual system like a TSPROF, where a constant angle can be set and repeated. The fact that it is manually operated (lke a stone) allows for judiciously slow material removal from the blade being sharpened.

IMHO the difference between a system like TSPROF & freehand stones is that the system prevents the inaccuracy caused by a person’s inability to maintain a constant angle.