"touching up a 58 Rockwell cleaver"

Kitchen Knife Forums

Help Support Kitchen Knife Forums:

r0bz

Senior Member
Joined
Sep 16, 2020
Messages
620
Reaction score
74
Location
unknown
"touching up a 58 Rockwell cleaver"
I want to do something between full sharpening sessions to make the edge last longer I sharpen it at 800# stone and deburr on 800# stone with edge leading
after that 3 passes on a leather belt

can i "touch up" with the 800# stones by using stropping edge leading strokes ?
will it be effective?

I used to use honing steel by Wusthof for touchups but members here have stated that it produced a very bad edge that does not last long, therefore, I stopped doing it... and that lead to me doing a full sharpening with the cleaver waiting for it to get dull and then doing a full sharpening session .....

i do not want to buy a ceramic honing rod or a dikoron micro hone
 

Bolt Thrower

Well-Known Member
Joined
Sep 15, 2022
Messages
57
Reaction score
92
Location
usa
can i "touch up" with the 800# stones by using stropping edge leading strokes ?
will it be effective?

Yes. Don't overthink it. Once the knife starts to dull, simply touch it up with your stone. Or you can try your strop.

With a coarser, toothy edge like this repeatedly stropping the edge back on leather will eventually give it a slicker, more polished edge. So with my coarse edges I tend to touch them up on the stone to preserve that good slicing action the lower grit edge gives.

Some things you can do to try to extend edge life:

1. Try to deburr as cleanly as possible. Those final strokes on a lower grit stone have to be really, really light passes across the stone to deburr well. With the right technique shaving sharp edges can be produced right off 100-300 grit stones, and definitely 800.

2. Don't chop harder than you have to. Obviously it's a cleaver so there will be some chop chop action, but don't go harder than you have to.

3. (more advanced) play around with the edge angle. Sometimes I find thinning out the edge then applying a microbevel around the original edge angle produces a longer lasting edge.
 

r0bz

Senior Member
Joined
Sep 16, 2020
Messages
620
Reaction score
74
Location
unknown
Yes. Don't overthink it. Once the knife starts to dull, simply touch it up with your stone. Or you can try your strop.

With a coarser, toothy edge like this repeatedly stropping the edge back on leather will eventually give it a slicker, more polished edge. So with my coarse edges I tend to touch them up on the stone to preserve that good slicing action the lower grit edge gives.

Some things you can do to try to extend edge life:

1. Try to deburr as cleanly as possible. Those final strokes on a lower grit stone have to be really, really light passes across the stone to deburr well. With the right technique shaving sharp edges can be produced right off 100-300 grit stones, and definitely 800.

2. Don't chop harder than you have to. Obviously it's a cleaver so there will be some chop chop action, but don't go harder than you have to.

3. (more advanced) play around with the edge angle. Sometimes I find thinning out the edge then applying a microbevel around the original edge angle produces a longer lasting edge.
the problem that an experienced member here has told me i don't know if he wants me to state his name is that he says that if i touch up with the 800# then " the very edge will be restored without re-establishing the geometry."
what do you think about this ?
 

Bolt Thrower

Well-Known Member
Joined
Sep 15, 2022
Messages
57
Reaction score
92
Location
usa
the problem that an experienced member here has told me i don't know if he wants me to state his name is that he says that if i touch up with the 800# then " the very edge will be restored without re-establishing the geometry."
what do you think about this ?
Someone with a lot of experience doesn't necessarily have experience with doing things the right way.

The answer is it depends on your sharpening angle.

If you touch up at the same angle you sharpen at, your geometry will not change.

If you use a more obtuse angle, you will create a microbevel.

The former will take longer but produce a thinner edge that cuts with less effort. The latter option gives you faster touch-ups but thickens the apex over repeated touch-ups.

I would use the same angle you sharpen at to maintain the thinner apex. 800 grit stones cut fast and most cleavers, like yours, are softer steel, so touch-up speed shouldn't be an issue.
 

r0bz

Senior Member
Joined
Sep 16, 2020
Messages
620
Reaction score
74
Location
unknown
Someone with a lot of experience doesn't necessarily have experience with doing things the right way.

The answer is it depends on your sharpening angle.

If you touch up at the same angle you sharpen at, your geometry will not change.

If you use a more obtuse angle, you will create a microbevel.

The former will take longer but produce a thinner edge that cuts with less effort. The latter option gives you faster touch-ups but thickens the apex over repeated touch-ups.

I would use the same angle you sharpen at to maintain the thinner apex. 800 grit stones cut fast and most cleavers, like yours, are softer steel, so touch-up speed shouldn't be an issue.
to touch up a few passes ? 10 each side edge leading stropping?
 

Bolt Thrower

Well-Known Member
Joined
Sep 15, 2022
Messages
57
Reaction score
92
Location
usa
to touch up a few passes ? 10 each side edge leading stropping?
That should do the trick. You may even br able to get by with fewer strokes than that. Depends on how wide your bevel is and whether your stone is a water stone, ceramic, diamond etc. Diamond will be more aggressive than a natutal water stone for example.
 

r0bz

Senior Member
Joined
Sep 16, 2020
Messages
620
Reaction score
74
Location
unknown
That should do the trick. You may even br able to get by with fewer strokes than that. Depends on how wide your bevel is and whether your stone is a water stone, ceramic, diamond etc. Diamond will be more aggressive than a natutal water stone for example.
it is a sun tiger 800# soaking water stone
 

Bolt Thrower

Well-Known Member
Joined
Sep 15, 2022
Messages
57
Reaction score
92
Location
usa
ok then 10 sounds good for something like that. if it feels as sharp as when you sharpened it last you're good, if not do a few more strokes per side alternating sides every stroke, and finishing with the lightest pressure you can.
 

r0bz

Senior Member
Joined
Sep 16, 2020
Messages
620
Reaction score
74
Location
unknown
ok then 10 sounds good for something like that. if it feels as sharp as when you sharpened it last you're good, if not do a few more strokes per side alternating sides every stroke, and finishing with the lightest pressure you can.
when the touch-up on the 800# stone isn't returning cleaver to full sharpness then I know I must do a full sharpening correct?
 

Benuser

from The Netherlands, EU.
KKF Supporting Member
Joined
May 3, 2011
Messages
8,556
Reaction score
3,226
"If you touch up at the same angle you sharpen at, your geometry will not change."
sharpen4 (1).jpg
 

Bolt Thrower

Well-Known Member
Joined
Sep 15, 2022
Messages
57
Reaction score
92
Location
usa
"If you touch up at the same angle you sharpen at, your geometry will not change."
View attachment 200988

Someone's being a pedant. Sure over a decade the geometry will change, but 10 strokes per side on an 800 grit stone will not change the geometry a noticeable amount over the course of a year. I have chef knives that are 10-20 years old that are still within a mm of their original factory specs. It takes years and years and years to do what your picture illustrates.
 

Benuser

from The Netherlands, EU.
KKF Supporting Member
Joined
May 3, 2011
Messages
8,556
Reaction score
3,226
Someone's being a pedant. Sure over a decade the geometry will change, but 10 strokes per side on an 800 grit stone will not change the geometry a noticeable amount over the course of a year. I have chef knives that are 10-20 years old that are still within a mm of their original factory specs. It takes years and years and years to do what your picture illustrates.
Just a pedantic suggestion: measure the thickness behind the edge after a year or so. Especially as the OP has great problems in recognising burrs, frequent 'touch-ups' are to be expected.
 
Last edited:

Bolt Thrower

Well-Known Member
Joined
Sep 15, 2022
Messages
57
Reaction score
92
Location
usa
BTE thickness is easy to modify when it does increase, and unless you're removing more steel than required or putting in 60 hour weeks in a butcher shop, no ones changing BTE stats as fast as you suggest. You'd have to be doing touch ups on a belt sander to change things that fast.
 

M1k3

New Mexico prefecture #1
Joined
Jul 28, 2018
Messages
8,488
Reaction score
13,817
Just do about 5 edge leading passes per side. Check results. Repeat if necessary. Done.
 

r0bz

Senior Member
Joined
Sep 16, 2020
Messages
620
Reaction score
74
Location
unknown
With a 800 Stone is for sure no touch up :rolleyes:

What about a Sharpening steel like DICK Microfeinzug ? This thing is a beast for soft steel. You may leave your Stone away for a very long time...

SirCutALot
can't buy it currently
why it isn't a touch-up with the 800# stone ?????
I also have a 1000/8000 stone but it is useless for stainless steel low hrc knives
also I have a Wusthof ridged steel honing rod but the members here advised me not to use it
 
Last edited:

r0bz

Senior Member
Joined
Sep 16, 2020
Messages
620
Reaction score
74
Location
unknown
can't buy it currently
why it isn't a touch-up with the 800# stone ?????
I also have a 1000/8000 stone but it is useless for stainless steel low hrc knives
also I have a Wusthof ridged steel honing rod but the members here advised me not to use it
please explain what you mean by that
"With a 800 Stone is for sure no touch up "
 

Bolt Thrower

Well-Known Member
Joined
Sep 15, 2022
Messages
57
Reaction score
92
Location
usa
you mean if i use a higher angle or a lower angle what does more obtuse mean ?
Imagine you take a picture from the side of you sharpening your knife. Imagine holding a protractor up to that picture to measure your sharpening angle. Say it's 15 degrees. If you sharpen at a more obtuse angle like 20 degrees, you will not be grinding the full bevel, but rather just the apex.
 

r0bz

Senior Member
Joined
Sep 16, 2020
Messages
620
Reaction score
74
Location
unknown
Someone with a lot of experience doesn't necessarily have experience with doing things the right way.

The answer is it depends on your sharpening angle.

If you touch up at the same angle you sharpen at, your geometry will not change.

If you use a more obtuse angle, you will create a microbevel.

The former will take longer but produce a thinner edge that cuts with less effort. The latter option gives you faster touch-ups but thickens the apex over repeated touch-ups.

I would use the same angle you sharpen at to maintain the thinner apex. 800 grit stones cut fast and most cleavers, like yours, are softer steel, so touch-up speed shouldn't be an issue.
what option would you recommend more for touch-up?
1. honing using a ridged steel wusthof metal honing rod
2. stropping edge leading using the 800# stone
 

natto

Senior Member
Joined
Jan 13, 2015
Messages
342
Reaction score
98
Location
Wilhelmsburg.de
Both ways are good. Soft steels can be kept sharp with a steel nearly for ever. The upside is little to no wear. Downside is all that steeling while cutting.

Most of us touch up at 3-6k. #800 will offer more bite to cut crusts. I like that on a Henckels beater, or as a touch up on a dulled knife. With every day cooking that edge can last up to a month. This will save me from repeated steeling. And the price is a little more wear.

Btw
My steel is a oval Dick Feinzug, 300mm.
 

r0bz

Senior Member
Joined
Sep 16, 2020
Messages
620
Reaction score
74
Location
unknown
Both ways are good. Soft steels can be kept sharp with a steel nearly for ever. The upside is little to no wear. Downside is all that steeling while cutting.

Most of us touch up at 3-6k. #800 will offer more bite to cut crusts. I like that on a Henckels beater, or as a touch up on a dulled knife. With every day cooking that edge can last up to a month. This will save me from repeated steeling. And the price is a little more wear.

Btw
My steel is a oval Dick Feinzug, 300mm.
@Benuser says to avoid the steel I currently have which is a grooved Wusthof rod
 

r0bz

Senior Member
Joined
Sep 16, 2020
Messages
620
Reaction score
74
Location
unknown
How do you like that steel from your experience? Which edge feels better?
from my experience the steel does work but an edge from the stone is better
also the steel produces a burr if used a lot i do not know why
 

natto

Senior Member
Joined
Jan 13, 2015
Messages
342
Reaction score
98
Location
Wilhelmsburg.de
from my experience the steel does work but an edge from the stone is better
also the steel produces a burr if used a lot i do not know why

Hi @r0bz ,
are you sure about that burr? I know that burrs only as a model to explain why steeled edges don't last. If you detect a burr after the first steeling. it is most likely weakened steel, a leftover from the last sharpening.

A steeled edge feels different than fresh from the stones, but it should not be worse. Steeling works best if you start on a clean edge. It might be worth a look, how good your edge is, fresh from stones?
 

r0bz

Senior Member
Joined
Sep 16, 2020
Messages
620
Reaction score
74
Location
unknown
Hi @r0bz ,
are you sure about that burr? I know that burrs only as a model to explain why steeled edges don't last. If you detect a burr after the first steeling. it is most likely weakened steel, a leftover from the last sharpening.

A steeled edge feels different than fresh from the stones, but it should not be worse. Steeling works best if you start on a clean edge. It might be worth a look, how good your edge is, fresh from stones?
its tomato slayers since i finish at 800 grit
i deburr on stone with edge leading and then 3 edge trailing strokes each side on a leather belt
 
Last edited:
Top