"touching up a 58 Rockwell cleaver"

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r0bz

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Three weeks without steeling is good👍

And how long does the edge last with steeling?
with steeling i would say with hevy usage of the knife again about 2 and half months or 3 something like that
but after that time the knife looks like this
this is what the steeling with the rough wusthof honing rod does after a long time i dont know why
1664716500890.png
 

natto

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That bright line looks like steeled at a high angle. A high angle and pressure will wear off the edge after some time. Steeling with light pressure, only a little higher than the sharpening angle should last longer.

But where is the burr?
 

r0bz

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That bright line looks like steeled at a high angle. A high angle and pressure will wear off the edge after some time. Steeling with light pressure, only a little higher than the sharpening angle should last longer.

But where is the burr?
this is a photo posted by @Kawa at the thread here
showing a burr
and
this is what the steeling with the rough wusthof honing rod does after a long time of steeling
Do you say that what you see in that photo is not a burr?
 

natto

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Ok, that might be a burr. Or the steeled area? I direct the edge to the light. If a small shadow shows up at edge, there is a burr. I like sunlight, but your lamp should show it too. But the shadow is small. A loupe shows it definitely.
 

Kawa

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If you mean my photo, thats a burr. A huge one. I used a coarse stone on the other side, just to show the burr on this side.
i can imagine a steeled/honed place looks the same when you create a microbevel. Its very easy to use a too big angle with a honing rod, which creates a microbevel on soft steel and that makes it feeling sharp again. But I think the steeled place won't light up like this: I think it would be the opposite since the angle is bigger -> the first bevel would be aiming more towards the ground in this picture so the light will have a harder time shining there.

I don't use a honing rod right after sharpening on stones 😇
 

natto

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That knife was steeled for weeks. Steeling won't leave an burr, visible to the naked eye. But the steeled area on a worn edge looks brighter.
the first bevel would be aiming more towards the ground in this picture so the light will have a harder time shining there.
Yes, parallel sunlight can show the described effect. Lamps on short distance don't do that.
 

r0bz

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How do you like that steel from your experience? Which edge feels better?
natto my friend I am very thankful for your patience and friendliness
in your opinion should i recontinue the use of the grooved Wusthof honing rod to enlong the sharpness of the cleaver until full sharpening on a stone ?

also, why is the dickoron micro recommended as the best and not let's say a dickoron micro vs the dickoron polish vs the dickoron sapphire cut?
 

Kawa

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I think we misunderstand eachother.
R0bz is showing one of my 2 pictures. I made a post showing the left and right side next to eachother, both with the flashlight trick. This is the side with burr, the other side is clean.
This is an obvious picture, but I think I also post a picture with more practical burr leftovers on a different knife, seeing onlyh little traces of burr light up

I have not been steeling one side only 🤪
 

r0bz

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I think we misunderstand eachother.
R0bz is showing one of my 2 pictures. I made a post showing the left and right side next to eachother, both with the flashlight trick. This is the side with burr, the other side is clean.
This is an obvious picture, but I think I also post a picture with more practical burr leftovers on a different knife, seeing onlyh little traces of burr light up

I have not been steeling one side only 🤪
kawa is that you on the motorcycle?
you are touching the road did it do something to you awsome picture?
 

Kawa

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natto my friend I am very thankful for your patience and friendliness
in your opinion should i recontinue the use of the grooved Wusthof honing rod to enlong the sharpness of the cleaver until full sharpening on a stone ?

also, why is the dickoron micro recommended as the best and not let's say a dickoron micro vs the dickoron polish vs the dickoron sapphire cut?

A normal Wisthof steeling rod is coarse, like in the 300-600 range?
You don't want to steel your 3000 finished knife with a 300 gritt steel, right?
It works, but the edge will feel very very toothy and you waste all your fine stonework.

Dickeron micro is one of the very few rods that has a fine finish.

I have the dickeron polished, and it doensn't do much for me. Maybe when you use it daily after a fresh edge, but you cant get your edge back to life when it is half worn.

The micro just is in that sweetspot: coarse enough to touch up a worn knife, fine enough not to scratch the edge back to life
 

r0bz

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A normal Wisthof steeling rod is coarse, like in the 300-600 range?
You don't want to steel your 3000 finished knife with a 300 gritt steel, right?
thank you for the explanation but I finish the knife at 800 I want a lot of bite for tomatoes
A normal Wisthof steeling rod is coarse, like in the 300-600 range? i do not know in what range is it
The micro just is in that sweetspot: coarse enough to touch up a worn knife, fine enough not to scratch the edge back to life
what do you mean by "fine enough not to scratch the edge back to life ?"
 

Kawa

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thank you for the explanation but I finish the knife at 800 I want a lot of bite for tomatoes
A normal Wisthof steeling rod is coarse, like in the 300-600 range? i do not know in what range is it

what do you mean by
"fine enough not to scratch the edge back to life ?"

If you finish all your knives on 800 gritt, I think your Wusthof is just fine.
I dont see a reason why you need an extra fine rod for a 800 gritt finished knive.

The other way around would be a waste in my opinion: If you finish at 3-6000 range, then you dont want to steel with a 400 gritt rod. It destroys al the polishing you have done in one pass. Thats what I mean with the last part.
 

Kawa

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kawa is that you on the motorcycle?
you are touching the road did it do something to you awsome picture?

Yes that is me. Back in the days though.
I ride way more responsible now: I'm older (less guts), don't ride as much anymore and I've become a dad.

Touching the road is fine, we use kneesliders.
In racery then do it to feel how low they can go.
Amateurs like me just do it because its fun. Although this angle is pretty low to be honest, I was almost at the max leaning angle the bike could handle
 

r0bz

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If you finish all your knives on 800 gritt, I think your Wusthof is just fine.
I dont see a reason why you need an extra fine rod for a 800 gritt finished knive.

The other way around would be a waste in my opinion: If you finish at 3-6000 range, then you dont want to steel with a 400 gritt rod. It destroys al the polishing you have done in one pass. Thats what I mean with the last part.
so from what you say i do not have a good reason to buy a dickoron micro?
or i still should look at buying 1
 
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Kawa

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The Dickeron micro is good for a specific small group of users I believe:
- You have a soft steel knive (on hard Jknives a steel rod can do harm)
- You finish that soft steel knive at a slightly higher gritt, so you want a corresponding steeling rod.
Not many people are in this combination I think. I'm thinking butchers maybe with their quality, razer sharp boning knives...?


You finish at 800 gritt. Why would you use a rod that is way finer? I dont see the logic in that.

But im here to learn aswell
 

r0bz

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The Dickeron micro is good for a specific small group of users I believe:
- You have a soft steel knive (on hard Jknives a steel rod can do harm)
- You finish that soft steel knive at a slightly higher gritt, so you want a corresponding steeling rod.
Not many people are in this combination I think. I'm thinking butchers maybe with their quality, razer sharp boning knives...?


You finish at 800 gritt. Why would you use a rod that is way finer? I dont see the logic in that.

But im here to learn aswell
i do not know @Benuser is the one who says to me that he recommends i shall only use a dickoron micro and that that he would refrain from the wusthof rod, maybe you can ask him and understand why and then you can explain me :)
 

r0bz

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i do not know @Benuser is the one who says to me that he recommends i shall only use a dickoron micro and that that he would refrain from the wusthof rod, maybe you can ask him and understand why and then you can explain me :)
kawa look at his explanation here
With pressure: you mill a new, coarse edge at a probably much higher angle on top of the old one without deburring it, so it's life span will be very short.
With little pressure you create a wire edge, a special case of a burr, on top of the old edge. Very sharp, until it comes into contact with the board and folds over the edge, which is instantly blunt like a butter knife, or breaks leaving a moonscape-like edge behind
 

r0bz

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kawa look at his explanation here
With pressure: you mill a new, coarse edge at a probably much higher angle on top of the old one without deburring it, so it's life span will be very short.
With little pressure you create a wire edge, a special case of a burr, on top of the old edge. Very sharp, until it comes into contact with the board and folds over the edge, which is instantly blunt like a butter knife, or breaks leaving a moonscape-like edge behind
that is why i am looking into the dickoron micro and asking if i should get 1 or it is not worth for me because i finish the knives at 800 grit
 

Kawa

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From what I see he explains what a coarse honing rod does and what the most common flaws are.

Many people who dont sharpen their own knives or have any knowledge on knives think 'they sharpen with a honing rod'
And dont argue with them 'because they have been doing this for over 20 years and their knive is still razor sharp'... you know this kind of people.

I bet these people all use a too high angle with a rod on soft steel and create a 'micro' bevel on top on their edge, creating a sharp feeling.
If you look closely to their knives, there isnt a bevel left, only a steeled micro edge. Because they have been doing it wrong for years.

The Dickeron Micro can do the same, just slower.
It about the same as: can you repair a chipped knife on a 8000 stone? Yes, but very very slowly..


But, you dont want to use a (steel) honing rod to create a new first bevel due to overangling... Thats wrong usage of a (steel) honing rod.
You should hit the exact same angle as your bevel is, realigning the rolled over edge (soft steel does this).
To me, it would make no sence to finish sharpening on 800 gritt and then realign the rolled over edge with a much finer rod.

It is still better then the opposite: finishing a knive on 3000 gritt or higher and then regularly use a rod of 300 gritt to realigh... You might aswell drop your fine stones..
 

r0bz

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From what I see he explains what a coarse honing rod does and what the most common flaws are.

Many people who dont sharpen their own knives or have any knowledge on knives think 'they sharpen with a honing rod'
And dont argue with them 'because they have been doing this for over 20 years and their knive is still razor sharp'... you know this kind of people.

I bet these people all use a too high angle with a rod on soft steel and create a 'micro' bevel on top on their edge, creating a sharp feeling.
If you look closely to their knives, there isnt a bevel left, only a steeled micro edge. Because they have been doing it wrong for years.

The Dickeron Micro can do the same, just slower.
It about the same as: can you repair a chipped knife on a 8000 stone? Yes, but very very slowly..


But, you dont want to use a (steel) honing rod to create a new first bevel due to overangling... Thats wrong usage of a (steel) honing rod.
You should hit the exact same angle as your bevel is, realigning the rolled over edge (soft steel does this).
To me, it would make no sence to finish sharpening on 800 gritt and then realign the rolled over edge with a much finer rod.

It is still better then the opposite: finishing a knive on 3000 gritt or higher and then regularly use a rod of 300 gritt to realigh... You might aswell drop your fine stones..
thank you @Kawa for this detailed explanation
from what science of sharp information both the dickoron micro and a wushof grooved steel they both create a microbevel
 

r0bz

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thank you @Kawa for this detailed explanation
from what science of sharp information both the dickoron micro and a wushof grooved steel they both create a microbevel
I bet these people all use a too high angle with a rod on soft steel and create a 'micro' bevel on top on their edge, creating a sharp feeling.
@Kawa this is exactly what it does according to science of sharp
"
The blade was then steeled in the traditional fashion, edge leading at an angle of approximately 30 degrees. The blade was imaged, confirming that keenness had been restored to the apex and revealing that this was achieved by removal of steel; creating a new micro-bevel. There is some evidence of softened metal being redistributed; however, a micro-bevel is unquestionably formed through metal removal."
 

Benuser

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I have the dickeron polished, and it doensn't do much for me. Maybe when you use it daily after a fresh edge, but you cant get your edge back to life when it is half worn.
I have a Dickoron Polish as well and found that it works well with carbon Sabs provided it's being used in time — as with all fine rods: before you notice any diminishing performance.
The advantage is exactly in not doing much. That said, I wouldn't use any honing after use of the blade, but rather prior to it. There's some self-restoring taking place.
 

Kawa

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I have a Dickoron Polish as well and found that it works well with carbon Sabs provided it's being used in time — as with all fine rods: before you notice any diminishing performance.
The advantage is exactly in not doing much. That said, I wouldn't use any honing after use of the blade, but rather prior to it. There's some self-restoring taking place.

I only use a rod on soft crap stainless steel that my wife uses. She doesn't want to be carefull with knives, so she doesn't want any better.

I will try the polished rod more often and earlier on her knives (my beaters) and see what it does 👍
 

r0bz

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If you finish all your knives on 800 gritt, I think your Wusthof is just fine.
I dont see a reason why you need an extra fine rod for a 800 gritt finished knive.

The other way around would be a waste in my opinion: If you finish at 3-6000 range, then you dont want to steel with a 400 gritt rod. It destroys al the polishing you have done in one pass. Thats what I mean with the last part.
@Benuser do you still recommend I get a dickoron micro or do you agree with what @Kawa has stated?
 

r0bz

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I only use a rod on soft crap stainless steel that my wife uses. She doesn't want to be carefull with knives, so she doesn't want any better.

I will try the polished rod more often and earlier on her knives (my beaters) and see what it does 👍
@Kawa do you use the steel with the knife towards your hand? or do you use it away from your hand?
videos are so it will be clear what i am asking

steeling away from hand


steeling towards hand


i do it away from my hand i don't like it the other way
 
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Kawa

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I do it like the second video.

But I dont think it does matter, the result is the same.

In movies and such you see cooks make a sport out of it to steel as fast as possible.
I think its more important to try to hit the same angle as you did on you stone.
Therefor use the steel very very slowly. Its so easy to overangle and create an huge new (micro)bevel.
Also, a few passes per side should do the trick. If you need more, thern you are just forcing a new bevel on the edge, which of coarse makes it sharp again. But you have to grind that out the next time you sharpen on the stones.
 
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