Toyama Knives

Discussion in 'The Kitchen Knife' started by Hamesjo, Dec 20, 2019.

Help Support Kitchen Knife Forums by donating:

  1. Dec 25, 2019 #91
    Paul is as welcome to share his theories and speculations as anybody else on this forum. Attacking him because he used to be a journalist goes beyond poor manners.
     
  2. Dec 25, 2019 #92

    ian

    ian

    ian

    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Dec 18, 2017
    Messages:
    1,345
    Location:
    Boston, MA
    +3 to the above.

    @Paul6001 Re Wakui, I think you can’t assume anything about the scale of his operation from the facts that you have. Yes, he’s listed on a bunch of sites, but say even that there are a couple thousand knives of his in circulation. It doesn’t take that long for a blacksmith to finish a single knife. Indeed, you can find vids of Carter doing a nakiri in an hour or two... I don’t remember exactly how long. Even if he makes only one a day, Wakui’s been working for years, so it’s entirely possible he’s made thousands of knives. With a small workshop of people each specializing in a different part of the knife, the numbers could be much much higher. Anyway, I have no idea what his business is really like, but I will trust the image he presents unless the numbers are off by like 2 orders of magnitude. I wonder how many Shuns there are in the world?
     
  3. Dec 25, 2019 #93

    M1k3

    M1k3

    M1k3

    Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2018
    Messages:
    1,084
    My apologies for my negative comments.
     
    bahamaroot, Matus and jacko9 like this.
  4. Dec 25, 2019 #94

    Corradobrit1

    Corradobrit1

    Corradobrit1

    Senior Member

    Joined:
    May 2, 2015
    Messages:
    1,944
    Carter states " To date, I have forged and completed over 25,000 knives" Thats definitely more than 1 per day. Knives are generally made in batches, and the practice of many Japanese firms is to have people dedicated to a particular aspect of manufacture ie forging/HT, grinding/sharpening and handle installation.
    btw Shiraki is estimated to have forged over 700,000 blades during his career.
     
    ian and McMan like this.
  5. Dec 25, 2019 #95

    labor of love

    labor of love

    labor of love

    Senior Member

    Joined:
    Dec 15, 2011
    Messages:
    8,136
    We don’t talk politics here. Against the rules.
     
    IsoJ, CiderBear, Midsummer and 2 others like this.
  6. Dec 25, 2019 #96

    Paul6001

    Paul6001

    Paul6001

    Banned

    Joined:
    Sep 22, 2019
    Messages:
    85
    Location:
    New York City
    Given... (insert drivel) ....value.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 26, 2019
    bahamaroot and jacko9 like this.
  7. Dec 25, 2019 #97

    McMan

    McMan

    McMan

    Senior Member

    Joined:
    Feb 15, 2018
    Messages:
    1,056
    I would speculate that Wakui makes more than one knife a day.

    Better still, I would speculate that he doesn’t “make” any—rather a team based on divided labor do, and his role is part of that process.
     
    CiderBear, M1k3 and labor of love like this.
  8. Dec 25, 2019 #98

    ian

    ian

    ian

    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Dec 18, 2017
    Messages:
    1,345
    Location:
    Boston, MA
    @Paul6001 Yea, not sure why everyone’s jumping all over you. (Although yea, we try not bring up politics or say the T word... I learned after the climate change thread that yes, this is actually better than the alternative.)
    Something similar about another blacksmith was proposed in some other thread a while ago, although I can’t remember where, and noone jumped over that person. Everyone should be able to speculate, and then people can respond. I personally don’t think there’s a reason to doubt that Wakui’s a small workshop, since it seems totally possible that a small workshop including multiple specialists could output a few knives a day, even more complicated ones than nakiris, and the very speculative numbers we have aren’t off by a factor of 1000 or something. But in any case, we don’t even have any real numbers, so all this is meaningless. Like, all the numbers you are taking as assumptions above could very well be off by factors of 10, in which case the analysis may fail.
     
    Last edited: Dec 25, 2019
  9. Dec 25, 2019 #99

    Gregmega

    Gregmega

    Gregmega

    Senior Member

    Joined:
    Apr 12, 2017
    Messages:
    748
    Watanabe makes a mean knife. I don’t know about that Toyama guy tho. Never heard of him.
     
    Kristoffer, Oui Chef, M1k3 and 2 others like this.
  10. Dec 25, 2019 #100

    Corradobrit1

    Corradobrit1

    Corradobrit1

    Senior Member

    Joined:
    May 2, 2015
    Messages:
    1,944
    Same way Teruyasu Fujiwara IV operates. Its commonly accepted that the 'tou kou' stamped blades were actually forged by him personally. However his DNA and knifemaking philosophy is in every TF blade as is clear to see.... TFTF
     
    CiderBear, M1k3 and Midsummer like this.
  11. Dec 25, 2019 #101
    Let's leave politics out of this discussion, shell we? :cool:

    One should not automatically assume that when they hear a Japanese name related to a knife industry, that it means that it is a one man operation. It is either a brand that orders knives from different workshops/craftsmen, or it is a larger operation/workshop. When it comes to Wakui - I have never heard a statement that it should be a one man show. I would expect (I mean - I am guessing) it would contain a few smiths and many sharpeners. BTW - knife forging & HT are pretty fast - a single smith can forge 100+ knives per day. It is sharpening (grinding) that takes most of the time. It appears very probable that Wakui makes knives for other brands/shops as they offer a wide range of knives with different hagane/jigane and finishes at a very reasonable price and at the same time very good quality.
     
  12. Dec 25, 2019 #102

    M1k3

    M1k3

    M1k3

    Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2018
    Messages:
    1,084
    I like facts. Not speculation, hearsay or what someone's "Magic 8-ball" says.

    Edit: Also like a good joke.

    Second addition: I like knives and Stones. Politics, meh. To many feelings involved.
     
    McMan likes this.
  13. Dec 25, 2019 #103

    ian

    ian

    ian

    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Dec 18, 2017
    Messages:
    1,345
    Location:
    Boston, MA
    Aw, I used to love magic 8-balls.

    “Did Mazaki make this knife?”

    ..... “Signs point to yes.”
     
    Kristoffer, M1k3 and labor of love like this.
  14. Dec 25, 2019 #104

    labor of love

    labor of love

    labor of love

    Senior Member

    Joined:
    Dec 15, 2011
    Messages:
    8,136
    “Welcome to Sanjo! My name is Naoki Mazaki, can I take your order please?”
     
    Oui Chef and M1k3 like this.
  15. Dec 25, 2019 #105

    Barclid

    Barclid

    Barclid

    Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2017
    Messages:
    306
    Shun recently released a "limited run" with the total being north of 5000 pieces. Having a few thousand pieces from small makers in Japan should not be that surprising to anyone.
     
  16. Dec 25, 2019 #106

    CiderBear

    CiderBear

    CiderBear

    Senior Member

    Joined:
    May 23, 2019
    Messages:
    780
    Location:
    United States
    Wait, what was this thread about again?
     
    M1k3 and daveb like this.
  17. Dec 25, 2019 #107

    Paul6001

    Paul6001

    Paul6001

    Banned

    Joined:
    Sep 22, 2019
    Messages:
    85
    Location:
    New York City
    I should have guessed that there was a “no politics” rule. Sorry about that.

    daveb edit: A quick perusal of the rules and you wouldn't have needed to guess.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 26, 2019
    Matus and ian like this.
  18. Dec 26, 2019 #108

    M1k3

    M1k3

    M1k3

    Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2018
    Messages:
    1,084
    Toyomanabe Watanoma.
     
  19. Dec 26, 2019 #109

    ian

    ian

    ian

    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Dec 18, 2017
    Messages:
    1,345
    Location:
    Boston, MA
    Merrrrrrry Christmas To ya, ma Friend!
     
    daveb, M1k3, CiderBear and 2 others like this.
  20. Dec 26, 2019 #110

    David7777777777

    David7777777777

    David7777777777

    Member

    Joined:
    Apr 28, 2017
    Messages:
    5
    Going back to the basic original idea of the post. I haven't seen or looked for Toyama knives outside of JNS. But I've owned at least five total. The current keeper is a 270mm Dami gyuto.
    So I have a pretty good frame of reference for the shape, steel, finish etc over a span of about 7 years.

    In that time I've also owned comparable Watanabe knives.
    Honestly, and it might be the level of quality the JNS expects or just a little bit more love. They are pretty much the same knife. (Speaking to a standard 240mm clad blue gyuto).

    With a little bit of time on the board and more time with stones and polish it's very easy to tune them to be the exact same knife. So, for the original poster that started this thread, if you can't get a Toyama because they are out of stock... definitely pickup a Watanabe and with a few small tweaks it's definitely a great knife with a very obvious profile and design.
     
  21. Dec 26, 2019 #111

    jacko9

    jacko9

    jacko9

    Senior Member

    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2014
    Messages:
    730
    Merry Christmas all - The question about Toyama knives and Watanabe knives is interesting. I only have one Toyama a 150mm Petty I got from JNS and it is fantastic even though it's pretty tall for a Petty (about 35.3mm if I can recall) it really looks like a short Gyuto. The Watanabe I have had for a year is the 180mm Nakiri Pro version in Blue Steel. Both knives are very thin and extremely good cutters. I liked the Nakiri Pro so well I bought one for my Granddaughter for Christmas unfortunately Shinichi just shipped it out today but my original was in near perfect new condition with the matching Saya so my granddaughter brought that home last night. She loves it and posted a short video on Facebook this morning! Bottom line - I like both Toyama and Watanabe.
     
    Last edited: Dec 26, 2019
    Kristoffer likes this.
  22. Dec 26, 2019 #112

    bahamaroot

    bahamaroot

    bahamaroot

    Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jan 14, 2013
    Messages:
    1,465
    The Toyama is 35mm tall.;) 30mm is not tall for a 150mm petty, pretty average. You have to hit around 34+ for it to be considered tall.
     
    Last edited: Dec 26, 2019
  23. Dec 26, 2019 #113

    ian

    ian

    ian

    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Dec 18, 2017
    Messages:
    1,345
    Location:
    Boston, MA
    It’s listed as 35 on JNS.
     
  24. Dec 26, 2019 #114

    jacko9

    jacko9

    jacko9

    Senior Member

    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2014
    Messages:
    730
    My bad to just guess yesterday - I measured the Toyama Petty from JNS this morning and it's 35.3mm tall
     
    ian likes this.
  25. Dec 26, 2019 #115

    ma_sha1

    ma_sha1

    ma_sha1

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 22, 2019
    Messages:
    256
    Location:
    CT
    My plan was to catch & release, I wanted to experience the Toyama hype but not keeping it, as it’s kind of boring looking.

    I caught it but was unable to release it because it beat every knife I have, including Kurosaki, TF & Mazaki. Mazaki with its extra weight & thinness behind the edge was able to hang with Toyama on potato & thick carrots, then it wedged on a watermelon. I brought out the Toyama 210, it freakin went through it as if it’s Tofu, unbelievable.

    The only problem was that Toyama has a small neck, not enough to squeeze a finger through for a firm “choke-hold”, my unprofessional style of holding 210. In the end, I solved the problem by making a TF-like finger notch.

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Dec 26, 2019
    labor of love and ian like this.
  26. Dec 26, 2019 #116

    labor of love

    labor of love

    labor of love

    Senior Member

    Joined:
    Dec 15, 2011
    Messages:
    8,136
    I’ve heard second hand that you can custom order a....full size “neck”. In other words reaching the top and bottom of the handle.
    But yeah, I agree...don’t like that little thing either.
     
    ma_sha1 likes this.
  27. Dec 26, 2019 #117

    valgard

    valgard

    valgard

    Stones Addict (terminal case)

    Joined:
    Jan 5, 2017
    Messages:
    2,801
    Location:
    Calgary, AB
    You can see my two custom Watanabe with wide neck here in the picture, the KU is in the middle, the kasumi is to the right. IMG_20191109_150306_500.jpeg
     
  28. Dec 26, 2019 #118

    Carl Kotte

    Carl Kotte

    Carl Kotte

    Senior Member

    Joined:
    Apr 5, 2019
    Messages:
    1,171
    Location:
    Stockholm, Sweden
    If I’m not mistaken we can also see a foot, dressed in a sock, wearing flip flops. That’s the right way to wear flip flops if you ask me. Zoidberg from Futurama would agree, if he were real and could wear socks.
     
    Midsummer, pd7077, Chuckles and 3 others like this.
  29. Dec 26, 2019 #119

    Corradobrit1

    Corradobrit1

    Corradobrit1

    Senior Member

    Joined:
    May 2, 2015
    Messages:
    1,944
    I've seen worse :eek:
     
    M1k3 and Carl Kotte like this.
  30. Dec 26, 2019 #120

    Carl Kotte

    Carl Kotte

    Carl Kotte

    Senior Member

    Joined:
    Apr 5, 2019
    Messages:
    1,171
    Location:
    Stockholm, Sweden
    Yeah, but I really do think it is the right way to go, faux pas or not
     
    M1k3 likes this.

Draft saved Draft deleted

Share This Page

Group Builder