Toyama Question

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Obviously there are many positive reviews regarding the Toyama gyutos, however I’m curious how they compare to some of the western makers. JapaneseNaturalStones sells the stainless clad 240 Toyama for ~570€ (I’m in the EU). Just from the specs some Isasmedjan (or other western makers with distal taper/thin bte) knives look pretty similar, maybe someone here can give a little insight to how they compare!

Thank you!
 
It’s hard to make generalizations because I think there is a lot of variation among western makers (and I haven’t tried that many western makers). I’d say that Toyama is still a great buy, but there’s a lot of competition at that price. At least a few western makers like Isasmedjan and ShiHan seem to offer more interesting steels/cladding and better fit and finish for otherwise similar specs.

My Birch and Bevel ApexUltra wrought (Isasmedjan) and ShiHan telegraph clad are fairly comparable to my Toyama Damascus in grind and dimensions, and a bit meatier than the Toyama stainless clad. Profile/tip on the Toyama is a bit more santoku-like. A bit more taper on the Isasmedjan.

Mostly a matter of taste, but they are all great.
 
Thank you for your input, I actually looked at the birch and bevel wrought, and it isn’t far off the price of the toyama. So I guess my question is if you buy a knife in this tier, is the Toyama something you absolutely have to try?
 
I like Toyama but I don’t think it is a must try, Toyama/Watanabe is really my first heavy workhorse type of knife so I have some sort of attachment, his steel is hard. Tho if I’m going to just have one knife at the price range (in Europe) I’m going for the Birch and Bevel 1.2419 Carbon, forge and grounded by Fredrik Spåre, one of my favorite maker
 
I'll say that I've enjoyed the grind and performance of my Watoyamas more than something like Isasmedjan, although it's not a bad comparison. One thing to note is that if you're looking for strong distal taper that's not really Toyama, the santoku tip profile holds decent spine thickness most of the way out and your tip doesn't get thin until it hits the grind. It does give his knives a more forward balance but if you want a super thin tip look elsewhere.

I really dig my ironclad Wat Pro (same as Toyama) but the lighter stainless clad ones are a little less special... that said Zahocho and JNS have been stocking heavier versions lately and those might be a return to form.

If you're asking if you should try Toyama as part of sampling a bunch of great knives I'd say definitely, if you're looking for the one best knife or best workhorse in that price range, not such a clear answer...
 
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Toyama's knives compared to typical western-maker workhorses are thinner at the handle, have less taper, a thicker tip, more asymmetry, a santoku-esque shape, a more blade heavy weight, and lesser F&F. All of this probably makes it sound like the western knives are clear winners as they check more of the forum zeitgeist boxes.

But its not so simple - Toyama's knives just flat out work in my experience. Every time I hold one I think to myself that the tip is too thick blah blah blah. Always shocked by how well they cut, tip included. Toyama makes a great knife that even at present prices offers a tremendous value. The one's I've used have outperformed knives more than twice the cost that on paper seem like they should have dominated the Toyama.
 
ethompson said:
Toyama's knives just flat out work in my experience.
Click to expand...
This.

His grinds and HT are some of the best. If you like the style of knife, Toyama is one of the best out there, period (IMO). Problem is it's extremely hard to find iron-clad versions (outside of the dammy) these days if that's what you're after.
 
Toyamas heat treat is really special IMO and stands out compared to the majority knives. Although I must say the santoku tip shape to be not enjoyable and somewhat limits what I can comfortably do when cutting compared to other gyutos.
I’ve always found them to be more suited for bulk prep work over maybe more detailed work. It’s almost like a veggie cleaver in gyuto form if that makes sense.
I’d much rather an Isasmedjan wrought iron over Toyama.
 
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labor of love said:
Toyamas heat treat is really special IMO and stands out compared to the majority knives. Although I must say the santoku tip shape to be not enjoyable and somewhat limits what I can comfortably do when cutting compared to other gyutos.
I’ve always found them to be more suited for bulk prep work over maybe more detailed work. It’s almost like a veggie cleaver in gyuto form if that makes sense.
I’ll be the lone dissenter and say I’d much rather an Isasmedjan wrought iron over Toyama.
Click to expand...

big plus one here.
 
labor of love said:
Toyamas heat treat is really special IMO and stands out compared to the majority knives. Although I must say the santoku tip shape to be not enjoyable and somewhat limits what I can comfortably do when cutting compared to other gyutos.
I’ve always found them to be more suited for bulk prep work over maybe more detailed work. It’s almost like a veggie cleaver in gyuto form if that makes sense.
I’d much rather an Isasmedjan wrought iron over Toyama.
Click to expand...
You pro cooks are always so picky 🤣😬;)
 
As embarrassed as I am to admit this I’ve bought like 11 wat/Toyama gyutos at this point. Usually one a year or so. The result is always the same-everything about them is so great except for that huge honker of a tip shape!
They are really great knives and I don’t mean to disparage them, but I really do think the blade shape makes them not so versatile.
I’ll grab a Nakiri sometime soon, or maybe even a petty. Steel is too special
 
labor of love said:
As embarrassed as I am to admit this I’ve bought like 11 wat/Toyama gyutos at this point. Usually one a year or so. The result is always the same-everything about them is so great except for that huge honker of a tip shape!
They are really great knives and I don’t mean to disparage them, but I really do think the blade shape makes them not so versatile.
I’ll grab a Nakiri sometime soon, or maybe even a petty. Steel is too special
Click to expand...
With your vast experience, have you found the SS to be much different than the iron clad?
 
Western makers I've tried dont necessarily have a specific grind that they use on every knife they make. So you can see thinner, thicker, more or less convexity, varying levels of distal taper, etc. With Toyama/Watanabe knives, I have seen a more similar style across their various examples. So you can have an idea of what to expect versus with a western maker who does customs, where it really depends on what was spec'd out for that particular blade.

All that being said, Toyama is very well done. If you want a forward balanced tall gyuto with a good all-around profile and a nicely convexed grind, get the Toyama. It just works, and very well at that.
 
Yoshi said:
With your vast experience, have you found the SS to be much different than the iron clad?
Click to expand...
Thicker, thinner, some more asymmetrical than others…the performance to me is independent of whether it’s carbon clad or not. KU ones seem to be generally thicker. Perhaps less asymmetrical? Couple more recent 240 Toyamas I tried were only 210-215 grams which makes for a very thin grind considering how big and tall these knives run. Probably my fave was a 255 gram one I picked up through JNS around 2017. Unbelievable food release. The weirdest one was an iron clad I had around 2012-2013 that was 290-300 grams. Absolute tractor of a knife lol
 
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In fairness I’ve only used 2 isasmedjan gyutos. Both sorta low bevel wrought iron. Not sure how all his many other style’s perform but I’d go right back to this style from him.
 
Toyama does one thing and does it well which I respect, but what I really appreciate from makers like Jonas is they can do everything. Stone polished bevels? Different damascus? PM steels? Wrought? Stainless clad? Different grinds? All check.

A little bit apples to oranges
 
I'm a Toyama fanboy and have owned the ones below (still own both gyutos, sold the others for different reasons). Thinking about getting a 270 gyuto and 180 santoku.

135 mukimono
150 ironclad petty
180 ironclad nakiri
210 ironclad gyuto
240 ironclad gyuto
270 ironclad suji
210 SS nakiri

Toyama makes one of my favorite combinations of grind and steel out there. The tall blades allow it to pack some weight without being too thick and wedgy, basically a slim workhorse. The (subtle) S grind with low convex bevels cuts everything beautifully and has good food release. The steel gets stinky sharp and bitey. Some have reported chipping issues but as a home cook I haven't had any.

I'm not in love with the profile, usually prefer a Sabatier style, but still love my gyutos for the reasons mentioned. I haven't had any issues with the tip, maybe not the best for detailed work but it does everything I expect from it (goes through onions, etc).

Can't compare to most western makers (I've only tried a few) so my post here is pretty much useless, but hopefully it inspires you to grab a Toyama and see what it's all about :p
 
Comparing my dammy Toyama to my Shi.Han A2 (only western I own), the Toyama wins on pure cutting performance and steel (it's pretty special), but the Shi.Han is a nicer overall package to me. More robust, better F&F, good profile, and a great cutter. I love them both for different reasons, but if I HAD to choose I'd take the Shi.Han over the Toyama. Neither are leaving my side though and get regular use. Price was about the same.
 
jacobwilder5 said:
Comparing my dammy Toyama to my Shi.Han A2 (only western I own), the Toyama wins on pure cutting performance and steel (it's pretty special), but the Shi.Han is a nicer overall package to me. More robust, better F&F, good profile, and a great cutter. I love them both for different reasons, but if I HAD to choose I'd take the Shi.Han over the Toyama. Neither are leaving my side though and get regular use. Price was about the same.
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Shi Han is a special case, IMO, because he trained under a Japanese smith (Ashi i believe). Not sure how much customization you get from him compared to Jonas.

Regardless, the point is moot because the OP is buying a Toyama to try. 🤜🤛
 
I bought a 270 ironclad gyuto back in 2013-2014ish, that is my favorite japanese blade. Wish, I'd gotten a second back when they were cheap, but since I have bought two stainless-clad 270s Toyama just to have as backups in storage. Overkill? Probably, but I don't regret it. The feeling of sharpening a fresh new Toyama in 15-25 years is gonna be worth it. I also own the ironclad garasuki and 210 ironclad nakiri.

Would I buy one at current prices? Probably not, but I'm biased by prices of yore. If an alternate reality version of me ordered a 270 from a western maker next week and they had delivered a Toyama to me for $500-$550, then I don't think I'd question it too much.
 
The Watanabe/Toyama zero edge feels really special. A little fragile OOTB, but cuts so well. A lot of makers (western and Japanese) won’t grind their knives all the way to a zero edge unless maybe by customer request, which is understandable because a zero ground knife chips easier and a lot of people might blame it on the maker. But it makes the edge feel extra sharp and cut so effortlessly. The stainless clad ones cut just as well if not a bit better than the ironclad, a lot of people just don’t like stainless cladding.

This is my old ironclad Toyama. I believe @labor of love owned it at one point. I definitely use it as a measuring stick for other knives.
 
kpham12 said:
The Watanabe/Toyama zero edge feels really special. A little fragile OOTB, but cuts so well. A lot of makers (western and Japanese) won’t grind their knives all the way to a zero edge unless maybe by customer request, which is understandable because a zero ground knife chips easier and a lot of people might blame it on the maker. But it makes the edge feel extra sharp and cut so effortlessly. The stainless clad ones cut just as well if not a bit better than the ironclad, a lot of people just don’t like stainless cladding.

This is my old ironclad Toyama. I believe @labor of love owned it at one point. I definitely use it as a measuring stick for other knives.
Click to expand...

Ah yeah the one w the heiji handle! Such a good cutter!
 
labor of love said:
Toyamas heat treat is really special IMO and stands out compared to the majority knives. Although I must say the santoku tip shape to be not enjoyable and somewhat limits what I can comfortably do when cutting compared to other gyutos.
I’ve always found them to be more suited for bulk prep work over maybe more detailed work. It’s almost like a veggie cleaver in gyuto form if that makes sense.
I’d much rather an Isasmedjan wrought iron over Toyama.
Click to expand...
Well I just came back to this thread and to so many inputs, appreciate you all!
Labor definitely makes a valid point, however im lucky to already own a hsc 240 with a tip-profile similar to what you are describing, so I got that side covered. I’m looking forward to try the Toyama myself and form my own opinion :)
 
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