Toyama SS Noborikoi compared to Denka Gyuto Wa

[konsuke]

For those who have both, how do these knives compare? Looking at the 240 the specs are pretty close.

Do both have the same kind of forward balance?

Edit: asking about Wa handles only and assume a proper grind.

 

[Cliff]

I have a 240 Denka and 270 SS Toyama, but I also have a recent carbon clad Watanabe 240 Gyuto. I love them all, but they are very different. First there is the issue of wa vs yo handles. I have a yo-Denka. Recent Toynabe are thinner and taller than the Denka. With a Western handle, the Denka is quite a bit heavier. My Denka holds an edge quite a bit longer, but the steel in each is wonderful. I'd decide based on price and profile.

 

[CalvinM]

I do not have a Denka, but I do have a TF knife(Morihei Fine Finish which is a iron clad white 1 somewhat similar to the Maboroshi seres). I also have a SS clad Toyama.

These are very different knives despite being similar in weight. The big difference besides the steel is the grind on the knives. TF are known for having very poor quality control on their grinds. Sometimes the knives can be thick behind the edge as well as sometimes overground. Toyama, however, tends to have consistent convex grinds that taper quite a bit. A more complex grind than TF. They are also finished with a zero grind which requires you to put on your own primary bevel(aka sharpen) to not have the edge microchip.

Toyamas also come with a lightweight ho wood handle and so are quite blade heavy whereas TF knives tend to come with a western handle that adds a lot relative weight leading to a different feel in hand. Both manufacturers handles are not very well respected for fit and finish. I personally don't have any problems with the Toyama handle and it is quite easy to replace. However, remember that if you do replace a Toyama handle that will most likely change the balance(since ho wood is lighter than most of other woods).

Steels. Both knives are generally regarded to have very well heat treated steels. TF Denka is stainless clad Aogami Super which should have excellent edge retention. People also claim that TF somehow makes his AS steel very hard yet tough(this is anecdotal and generally these attributes do not go together). Toyama's blue 2 has good edge retention and should be slightly nicer to sharpen. TF's steel has the reputation of being quick to bring back to sharp on stones; however, I personally have found aogami super not quite as nice on the stones as blue and white steels in general.

Personally, I think Toyama is the better blade overall; but there are plenty of fans of TF. If you do buy, a TF perhaps plan to have some work done on the blade by an experienced sharpener(District Cutlery offers TF regrinds Teruyasu Fujiwara Regrind Service)

 

[Cliff]

I think Toyama is better finished and the blade road will have fewer low spots, though there will be some. To me, the bigger choice is between a tall and thin-ish, medium weight knife and a slightly shorter, even more authoritative blade with a steel that holds its edge quite a bit longer. Although they feel different to me on the stones, I would not say that one is particularly hard to sharpen. They both stand out for their relative ease of sharpening and edge holding. I like Wat and Toyama at a slightly higher polish, but that is likely personal preference.

 

[tostadas]

These 2 knives share little in common. You may want to start here

https://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/threads/tf-or-watanabe.38102/
https://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/threads/tf-or-toyama-the-review.46836/

 

[konsuke]

Sorry, should have mentioned that I meant Wa handle only and to assume that the TF is properly ground (reground).

Toyama, however, tends to have consistent convex grinds that taper quite a bit. A more complex grind than TF. They are also finished with a zero grind

Just bought a Toyama SS and did not know it had a zero grind. Now that you mention it, if I look at the edge the micro bevel seems to be missing. Thanks for the hint!

To me, the bigger choice is between a tall and thin-ish, medium weight knife and a slightly shorter, even more authoritative blade with a steel that holds its edge quite a bit longer.

Assuming you get a custom, same size blade, the TF is more of a laser? What do you mean by authoritative?

Here it says the TF 240 (wa) has the same height and edge length as the TY.

 

[tostadas]

TF has a thicker grind generally. I've had 7 TFs (give or take), in all the sizes ranging from 150mm through 240mm. Most tend to be on the medium/thick side. However, I've also had a few lasers, so it really varies. Profiles vary from fairly flat, to lots of belly. Spines tend to have minimal taper, lending to a solid feel in hand. In all cases though, the knives perform very well and take a very sharp edge with ease.

There's no need to "fix" the grind. It functions perfectly fine. It's rough around the edges for sure with some examples more extreme than others. I personally enjoy modifying mine to my tastes: dialing in the grind, cleaning up the fit and finish, etc. But I also do that with many of my other knives too, even ones I have custom made.

In contrast, the Toyamas are ground more consistently. At least the 3 or 4 I've had. The SS versions being a thin right-biased convex. Toyama profiles have a lower tip than most, but the curvature is still comfortable with no dead flat spots. Even with the Toyama, I feel like they could use some work on the sharp spine and edges out of the box. Also the tangs are kind of a mess if you plan on rehandling, plan on straightening or doing a bit of grinding of the tang.

If I had to choose, I pick Toyama for wa-handle. TF with wa-handle is nothing special, but TF with western handle just feels right. For that reason, I have 2 of each haha.

 

[Cliff]

Sorry, should have mentioned that I meant Wa handle only and to assume that the TF is properly ground (reground).


Just bought a Toyama SS and did not know it had a zero grind. Now that you mention it, if I look at the edge the micro bevel seems to be missing. Thanks for the hint!


Assuming you get a custom, same size blade, the TF is more of a laser? What do you mean by authoritative?

Here it says the TF 240 (wa) has the same height and edge length as the TY.

I have the yo-handle, so I cannot compare apples to apples. But I think the TF will less blade height and likely more convexed than present-day Toyamas, which I think are taller and thinner overall. I mean the TF feels like less of a laser. Now, older, iron clad Toyama and Watanabe could be log splitters.

 

[blokey]

Kind want to add Heiji in the mix, the 270 Gesshin Heiji in stock is really calling out to me.

 

[Cliff]

Look similar to me to old school Toynabe

 

[blokey]

I hope that's a good thing.

 

[Cliff]

They are venerable classics for a reason. Great, great heat treat, serious heft that does most of the work, convexed for food release. I think those Wats and Toyamas had more refined grinds, but nothing a little time on the stones wouldn't smooth out.

ETA - One potentially significant difference. I think Heiji has generally been less tall than Wat and Toyama, though I'm sure there is some variation.