shinyunggyun
Banned
Anyone ever used both of these? I heard that if you have one of them, it's not really necessary to get the other. Is this true?
Toyama vs kochi migaki
- Thread starter shinyunggyun
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I have used both of them. I disagree with what you've heard, but it is just my opinion. Very much depends on the context of what you've heard.
shinyunggyun
Banned
To me, from the examples I've used these are very different. There are similarities of course, but profile, grind, balance, etc in the ones I've tried were different enough that I would not think that using one gave you any information about using the other so in this light I don't know how having one makes it unnecessary to try the other.
I prefer older, heavier iron clad Toyama.
I prefer older, heavier iron clad Toyama.
tostadas
Hobbyist / Craftsman
Are you talking about the iron clad toyama or the newer ss clad? They have different grinds.
In any case, there are numerous differences. Toyama is significantly taller typically around 55mm, while the kochi is 50-52. The toyama has a convex grind with shinogi going up to 20-25mm while the kochi I've seen with a bit of concavity immediately behind the edge and shinogi line around 10-20mm. Toyama has more spine taper, but almost no edge taper. Kochi has less spine taper but more edge taper. The toyama are also noticeably heavier, in part due to the more sizable tang (kochi tang is rather short). Fit and finish of the kochi out of the box is excellent, while toyama has some sharp edges around the spine and choil that need to be cleaned up.
I love the kochi/Wakui knives but I feel the performance of the toyama is more my style.
In any case, there are numerous differences. Toyama is significantly taller typically around 55mm, while the kochi is 50-52. The toyama has a convex grind with shinogi going up to 20-25mm while the kochi I've seen with a bit of concavity immediately behind the edge and shinogi line around 10-20mm. Toyama has more spine taper, but almost no edge taper. Kochi has less spine taper but more edge taper. The toyama are also noticeably heavier, in part due to the more sizable tang (kochi tang is rather short). Fit and finish of the kochi out of the box is excellent, while toyama has some sharp edges around the spine and choil that need to be cleaned up.
I love the kochi/Wakui knives but I feel the performance of the toyama is more my style.
MrHiggins
Senior Member
I've owned both, and not only in 240s but also 270s (all the iron clad versions). They're not so similar as to say they're interchangeable. Not even close.
I think that tostadas summed up the differences really well. The things I'd add are: 1) the Kochi Migaki is thinner behind the edge, 2) the Toyama is ground very righty-biased, especially closer to the edge, and 3) the tip profile is quite different with the Kochi being pointier and the Toyama being more snub-nosed.
Both are great knives, but have a much different feel in hand. The Toyama is a more substantial/beefier knife overall.
I think that tostadas summed up the differences really well. The things I'd add are: 1) the Kochi Migaki is thinner behind the edge, 2) the Toyama is ground very righty-biased, especially closer to the edge, and 3) the tip profile is quite different with the Kochi being pointier and the Toyama being more snub-nosed.
Both are great knives, but have a much different feel in hand. The Toyama is a more substantial/beefier knife overall.
shinyunggyun
Banned
Thank you for the summary. Kochi migaki is done by wakui?
tostadas
Hobbyist / Craftsman
Not confirmed since vendors cannot disclose that info, but in my opinion the similarities are too strong to overlook.
Kochi Migaki is different from Kochi Kurouchi, different core steel and different grinds and profiles. Just making sure since OP asked about migaki specifically and your description of Kochi makes me think you are describing the kurouchi version. The 2 versions are different enough that they might be made by different makers, not that I know this.
tostadas
Hobbyist / Craftsman
Yes, the Kochi migaki and kurouchi are different materials and grinds. This is also the case with Wakui migaki and KU with regard to grind. I am indeed describing the migaki version. Again, it's possible they are from different makers and I wouldn't completely rule it out. But I did base my notes off of actual observations.
Interesting, the 2 examples of kochi migaki I've used had similar dimensions to what you describe, but different grind. My versions had more of a convex grind without concavity behind the edge. In this sense migaki i've had were closer to Toyama grind even though still different.. The grind you describe was more similar to the kurouchi versions I've seen. Most likely just the difference between individual examples or maybe different batches over time.
tostadas
Hobbyist / Craftsman
To clarify, I would say they are generally convex grinds that are probably done with a large wheel, resulting in some slight concavity at some areas along the edge. Not to say they are concave up to the shinogi. In contrast, my Toyama grind had no noticable concavity when checked against a credit card used as a straight edge.
I think you're right that it could vary from sample to sample, as my latest Wakui migaki also has no concavity.
