Rephrasing could help.
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MowgFace
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I hear #soaking is popular in places like Utah.
Discussing an option c to a-b ?
sumis
Senior Member
it’s about practice, not language. but sometimes words brings us unexpected gifts, like, from behind.
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People who only eat chicken breast have no soul.
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They have more soul than vegans at least?
Vegans are HelWalkers
I’m not sure- are we talking vegans vs people that only eat chicken fingers + fries?
Dan-
Senior Member
So people who eat only fries vs people who eat only chicken nuggets and fries? Why are there so many obese “vegans”?
Bert2368
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Sweden stayed in the 30 years war because the food on the continent was better than Swedish cooking?!
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(Quote)
As a part Swede I suspect it was the quest for better meals that kept the Swedish troops in Europe as it seems like everyone but the Norwegians, Finns, and Russians generally cook better than the Swedes. The real thrust may have been to get Italian, French, and Spanish meals rather than the Protestant-Catholic assumptions for the war. An army travels on it’s stomach, not it’s sermons
https://www.quora.com/Why-were-the-...tive-in-the-Thirty-Years-War?top_ans=43653346
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(Quote)
As a part Swede I suspect it was the quest for better meals that kept the Swedish troops in Europe as it seems like everyone but the Norwegians, Finns, and Russians generally cook better than the Swedes. The real thrust may have been to get Italian, French, and Spanish meals rather than the Protestant-Catholic assumptions for the war. An army travels on it’s stomach, not it’s sermons
https://www.quora.com/Why-were-the-...tive-in-the-Thirty-Years-War?top_ans=43653346
sumis
Senior Member
viable hypothesis. good traditional swedish stuff is usually from somewhere else originally anyway. so historically, yes.
not everything though – i grew up on some of the stuff magnus nilsson made world famous by enhancing it at fäviken. kolbulle, nävgröt (finnish, i know), kalvdans … amazing stuff.
and at large, these days, swedes are back with a vengeance when it comes to making great food based on what is at hand around these parts.
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I'm not vegetarian, but sometimes I wonder if vegan hate is about "yes, I know what they're doing is better for the world, and that makes me feel bad about my own choices, but I love meat too much to stop eating it, so I'll make fun of vegans." Again, I'm not vegetarian. And I get that when you invite someone over to your house for dinner, it's kinda annoying if they have dietary restrictions.
Veganism is also an impossible ideal. It is not actually possible in the world we live in. I have many vegan friends and they all recognize that completely avoiding animal products isn't possible. They have made a decision for health or ethics or ecological reasons or whatever to eliminate as much animal products and byproducts from their diet as they can. That is their prerogative and I respect it.
As someone who teaches health and nutrition and culinary classes I preach to people to eat less animal products and more plant foods, vegans just take it a step further, or many steps further. But at the same time, I don't know how far each vegan will take their veganism. So I try not to label things vegan anymore, or I'll put 'vegan friendly', list all of the ingredients, and then let them make their own decision.
For instance I do a non dairy yogurt parfait with oat milk, coconut yogurt, berries, and granola. But I don't label it vegan because the granola I use has honey in it and many vegans won't eat honey because it is a byproduct of bees. Great, so just get rid of honey right? Well if honey is a byproduct of bees then so are pollinated fruits so I would have to get rid of the berries. I'm not going to research every ingredient to it's origin to make sure that they aren't using animal products. But if you do, go ahead. I did my best to provide something without animal products that's thoughtful and tastes good and is healthy. If it's not quite vegan enough, then I will not be offended.
And one time I was trying to make sure that I was using only vegan friendly stuff for a vegan organization event. So I did research on what kind of things I can serve stuff on, cook stuff with, etc. Turns out almost all industrial materials stuff has animal products and byproducts in it. Paper, plastic, glass, steel, wood. At some point in the process animal stuff gets used in the binders, epoxies, glues, dyes, soaps, paints, solvents, clarifying agents, emulsifiers, etc. For basically everything that is manufactured, which is most everything.
So in most ways, I actually am a vegan. Just a highly disillusioned one.
As someone who teaches health and nutrition and culinary classes I preach to people to eat less animal products and more plant foods, vegans just take it a step further, or many steps further. But at the same time, I don't know how far each vegan will take their veganism. So I try not to label things vegan anymore, or I'll put 'vegan friendly', list all of the ingredients, and then let them make their own decision.
For instance I do a non dairy yogurt parfait with oat milk, coconut yogurt, berries, and granola. But I don't label it vegan because the granola I use has honey in it and many vegans won't eat honey because it is a byproduct of bees. Great, so just get rid of honey right? Well if honey is a byproduct of bees then so are pollinated fruits so I would have to get rid of the berries. I'm not going to research every ingredient to it's origin to make sure that they aren't using animal products. But if you do, go ahead. I did my best to provide something without animal products that's thoughtful and tastes good and is healthy. If it's not quite vegan enough, then I will not be offended.
And one time I was trying to make sure that I was using only vegan friendly stuff for a vegan organization event. So I did research on what kind of things I can serve stuff on, cook stuff with, etc. Turns out almost all industrial materials stuff has animal products and byproducts in it. Paper, plastic, glass, steel, wood. At some point in the process animal stuff gets used in the binders, epoxies, glues, dyes, soaps, paints, solvents, clarifying agents, emulsifiers, etc. For basically everything that is manufactured, which is most everything.
So in most ways, I actually am a vegan. Just a highly disillusioned one.
Dan-
Senior Member
People hate vegans for the same reasons they hate anyone who is sanctimonious. Unfortunately, there are enough obnoxious ones that the good egg-substitutes have been painted with the same brush.
That said, we've adopted a vegetable-first diet with fish once a week and some other kind of meat once a week. Not like we're going to give up eggs or butter or milk though.
That said, we've adopted a vegetable-first diet with fish once a week and some other kind of meat once a week. Not like we're going to give up eggs or butter or milk though.
The Swedish Julbord is pretty awesome too.
I have no kick against vegans but I do have trouble with both vegetarians and vegans whose diets seem to be based entirely around often highly processed fake meat* and fake dairy products. It is such a narrow perspective.
*I'm not counting tofu, tempeh, mushrooms, legumes, nuts or any of the other food stuffs that are sometimes used to assume, at least to an extent, the role of meat without trying to look like or have the texture of meat as fake meat.
*I'm not counting tofu, tempeh, mushrooms, legumes, nuts or any of the other food stuffs that are sometimes used to assume, at least to an extent, the role of meat without trying to look like or have the texture of meat as fake meat.
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Hmm, not sure I find this convincing. I mean, everything about the way we consume food nowadays requires all sorts of supporting industries to exist. Maybe I’m wrong, but I thought it was uncontroversial that animal farming is an inefficient way to feed people*, and worse for the environment. The fact that veganism wasn’t an option for the pioneers isn’t relevant to whether it’s better or worse for society nowadays.
*Processed fake meat is probably not so great either, so I’m mostly talking about vegetarians/vegans (like my parents) who don’t eat much of those.
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I don't hate vegans but I also do not think it's better for the world.
There's no free lunch.
Pun thrown in for my buddy @BillHanna.
Jovidah
I'll make you a sponsor offer you can't refuse...
That this has been so uncritically accepted and become a 'mainstream opinion' is arguably the biggest success of the anti-meat lobby. Especially considering the questionable and manipulative usage of numbers, deliberate oversimplification and misrepresentation of sustainability problems and variables, especially when considering the complete picture of an individual's consumption.
In the Netherlands we've seen the anti-meat lobby use round-about ways to try and kill off the meat industry by deliberately creating legal problems around nitrogen emissions. Basically the anti-meat / animal-friendly lobby has shifted tactics to campaigning on environment because it'd get them more traction than focusing on animal cruelty and cuddlyness.
When I still studied social psychology courses the professor who gave my courses was also one of the most vocal people in that anti-meat lobby...and let's just say I recognize a lot of what they've done over the last 10 years.
Although my nr 1 problem, and by far the most dramatic effect of this damn vegan lobby, is that it has resulted in most cookies, puff pastries, etc becoming 'vegan-friendly' and having replaced butter with palm oil crap in almost all products.
I mean, ok, but can you point me to some competing evidence? I'm always happy to be convinced that my assumptions are incorrect, but the fact that the anti-meat lobby has been successful doesn't mean they're not right.
haha. wait, so if i pollinate my garden with a qtip, that ѕhit's not vegan anymore since i'm an animal (just like a bee)? is a dish prepared by humans not vegan for the same reason, then? i think this is a hilarious argument that i will definitely keep in my back pocket to troll any obnoxious vegans i may encounter, but where does the madness end?
Jovidah
I'll make you a sponsor offer you can't refuse...
The main problem with honey is that many producers will simply kill off most of their bees after harvesting since it's more economical. So commercial honey production often involves a lot of bee killing.
I think we need to separate vegan and vegetarian, not the same thing at all. One is maybe possible one is not if we take humanity as a whole. Another issue I have with this is that vegetarianism doesn't automatically mean better for the environment, it can be, but it doesn't have to be so equating the two is wrong and misleading. Cutting down Amazon forest to plant soybeans or rice could be as bad as cutting it down to plant animal feed.
sure, but i'm specifically questioning the claim that pollinated fruit is nonvegan (which i have never heard before), not that honey is nonvegan.
i see some problems with the exploitation of bees (and other animals)... no argument there.
I’ll stick to figs and milk, then, nothing objectionable there whatsoever!
Jovidah
I'll make you a sponsor offer you can't refuse...
Not sure if I have the time to write something more expansive with proper sources tomorrow so I'll just throw out the first few things that come to mind in short-form:
-Right now, food is usually only a minority part of people's CO² footprint. So if I use the first 'pro-vegan' numbers I can find right now, whether you're a vegan with a co2 footprint of 1,5 tonnes per year vs the worst possible meat-eater can design at 3,3 tonnes per year isn't a 'gamechanging' difference when the average total co2 footprint is about 16 tonnes of co2.
-Almost all 'meat is bad' comparisons rely heavily on comparing vs beef, which is indeed by far the worst polluter, and massively stacks the deck. When you start looking at fish, eggs & chicken the picture changes drastically. Insects would likely be even better but I think no one wants to go there... But the difference between vegetarian and vegan is actually quite minimal as a result.
-Similarly, most of these comparisons deliberately compare kilograms of product instead of kilograms of protein... while there's still a difference in favor of plant-based proteins, the difference is a lot less dramatic due to the higher protein content in animal products.
-I have yet to see a comparison that includes 'organic' vs 'industrial / bioindustry' produced meat. Probably because they prefer to hide the uncomfortable truth that animal-friendlyness and environmental-friendlyness are often at odds with eachother. Large scale, industialized produciton with fast-growing breeds is usually significantly more efficient when it comes to resources consumption / CO2. But the fact that these aren't seperated / specified properly is on its own indicative that the numbers are deliberately 'vague', considering there's a significant difference in their footprint.
-There's more to sustainability than just Co²...there's also things like water consumption. And just as an example, a lot of nuts are actually quite horrible at their water consumption. A kilo almonds costs about 16k liters of water. A kilo of cashews 14k. A kilo of chicken? Only 4k.
-As stringer pointed out it's not as simple as 'simply feeding all the soy to people and live happily ever after'. Animal products are in everything. Especially in industrial production, everything from head to tail gets used in one way or another. For many of these products the most likely replacement would be a petroleum product, or something artificial with a high co2 footprint.
Similarly, livestock is often fed with a lot of sub-par products and waste streams that wouldn't otherwise be considered fit for human consumption.
