D. Martell UPDATE - Please read if waiting for work from me - Part II

[osakajoe]

Outsource handle work and stop taking any new re handle or re sharpening jobs.

How many forged knife blanks, let’s say gyuto 210mm, can you grind and sharpen to completion in a day?

 

[brooksie967]

ouch

 

[Godslayer]

Outsource handle work and stop taking any new re handle or re sharpening jobs.

How many forged knife blanks, let’s say gyuto 210mm, can you grind and sharpen to completion in a day?

He's right, your going to face a real issue coming up, I know a lot of people are mad right now, I've had a few talks, I don't know what your doing wrong but your output is way way too low. Every maker I know of has significantly higher output, stock removal knives you should be able to output several a week without issue . I don't want to see it happen but your going to get burned and become another Pierre. It's not a good situation. And I don't know what your doing if anything to fix it. You need better project management skills and you need to take a couple hours, figure out what's owed, make a time table and stick to it, otherwise your going to get blacklisted by the community. A lot of guys are mad at you right now and your whining about you not knowing what to do isn't a valid solution. REALISTICALLY a custom handle shouldn't take more then 2-4 hours. Your not doing anything crazy, all your work is relatively basic stuff done at the highest level possible. We get fit and finish takes time, but your time is coming to an end of you don't figure your zhit out and figure it out fast. Even I'm getting mad and I don't even have work from you and I won't(I want to) get work from you until you smarten the f up and get your life together .

 

[WildBoar]

Uhm, I am not sure you (or any of us) know all that is going on in Dave M's life. He is a man with a with and kids, and he is struggling to keep things moving along as best he can. "Get your life together" is a bit much, in my opinion. You have no effin' clue what any other things that may be going on in the background.

I feel bad for all who have prepaid for rehandles and knives. I really do. And several of those people are forum members I have become friends with, so I see both sides. But for those who are not waiting for prepaid work, the easiest thing to do is to keep it that way.

As far as the Pierre reference is concerned, Pierre went underground and left many people screwed over. Dave M has not done that. He has admitted he does not have the money to pay back all those who have prepaid, but he is still chipping away at the work. He has to keep a roof over his family first and foremost, while still working slowly to make things right with customers. I suspect if you were in the same boat your family would come first. At least I would hope so.

 

[Pensacola Tiger]

Uhm, I am not sure you (or any of us) know all that is going on in Dave M's life. He is a man with a with and kids, and he is struggling to keep things moving along as best he can. "Get your life together" is a bit much, in my opinion. You have no effin' clue what any other things that may be going on in the background.

I feel bad for all who have prepaid for rehandles and knives. I really do. And several of those people are forum members I have become friends with, so I see both sides. But for those who are not waiting for prepaid work, the easiest thing to do is to keep it that way.

As far as the Pierre reference is concerned, Pierre went underground and left many people screwed over. Dave M has not done that. He has admitted he does not have the money to pay back all those who have prepaid, but he is still chipping away at the work. He has to keep a roof over his family first and foremost, while still working slowly to make things right with customers. I suspect if you were in the same boat your family would come first. At least I would hope so.

Where's the 'like' button when you need it?

 

[Dave Martell]

Once again, I do not just make knives or handles - sharpening & repair work - is nearly half of what I do! Also, I don't work regular hours that can be easily tracked or planned, and I often lose 1/2 days to a medical condition that I have NO control over! I do the best I can do with what I have. This isn't me complaining or making excuses - it is the ******* truth!

I'll continue to plug away at reducing my backlog of pre-paid work, and yes it is always being dealt with, until it's gone. I'm sorry if this isn't fast enough or done exactly as some would have it but again it's getting done. Would I be better off calling it quits and screwing every person owed? That's the alternative here.

 

[Dave Martell]

Uhm, I am not sure you (or any of us) know all that is going on in Dave M's life. He is a man with a with and kids, and he is struggling to keep things moving along as best he can. "Get your life together" is a bit much, in my opinion. You have no effin' clue what any other things that may be going on in the background.

I feel bad for all who have prepaid for rehandles and knives. I really do. And several of those people are forum members I have become friends with, so I see both sides. But for those who are not waiting for prepaid work, the easiest thing to do is to keep it that way.

As far as the Pierre reference is concerned, Pierre went underground and left many people screwed over. Dave M has not done that. He has admitted he does not have the money to pay back all those who have prepaid, but he is still chipping away at the work. He has to keep a roof over his family first and foremost, while still working slowly to make things right with customers. I suspect if you were in the same boat your family would come first. At least I would hope so.

Where's the 'like' button when you need it?

Thank you guys.

 

[brianh]

Once again, I do not just make knives or handles - sharpening & repair work - is nearly half of what I do! Also, I don't work regular hours that can be easily tracked or planned, and I often lose 1/2 days to a medical condition that I have NO control over! I do the best I can do with what I have. This isn't me complaining or making excuses - it is the ******* truth!

I'll continue to plug away at reducing my backlog of pre-paid work, and yes it is always being dealt with, until it's gone. I'm sorry if this isn't fast enough or done exactly as some would have it but again it's getting done. Would I be better off calling it quits and screwing every person owed? That's the alternative here.

Where's the 'like' button when you need it?

Was wondering the same thing.

 

[Dave Martell]

Thanks Brian

 

[brooksie967]

Once again, I do not just make knives or handles - sharpening & repair work - is nearly half of what I do! Also, I don't work regular hours that can be easily tracked or planned, and I often lose 1/2 days to a medical condition that I have NO control over! I do the best I can do with what I have. This isn't me complaining or making excuses - it is the ******* truth!

I'll continue to plug away at reducing my backlog of pre-paid work, and yes it is always being dealt with, until it's gone. I'm sorry if this isn't fast enough or done exactly as some would have it but again it's getting done. Would I be better off calling it quits and screwing every person owed? That's the alternative here.

I get it. At the same time maybe stop taking new custom work until you get everything else sorted out.

 

[Godslayer]

Firstly I'd like to formally apologize to Mr. Martell, what I said really wasn't needed and probably just poured salt on the wound, I probably should of sent my thoughts in PM or FB or IG on a private channel and I apologize for my antagonistic behavior, the Pierre reference was a step too far as he at least communicates. As most people know I am a fan of martells work and have openly stated he probably makes the cleanest hidden tang yo handle on the market, easily being on par with most if not all master blade smiths. My main concern is that his reputation continues to dwindle, and as someone who respects daves work I did not want this too happen, he's an interesting guy with interesting posts and makes interesting knives and handles. I like Dave, I like Dave a lot and it hurts me to see. I say this because when I mentioned he should redo my takamura I had several forum members tell me that may not be a good idea, and if they are doing that to me, they are probably doing that to others. I want Dave to succeed, I want to see Dave make more bad ass knives and continue to develop his craft, I want dave to be able to charge what his knives are actually worth vs the over 9000 price drops weve been seeing lately. I know what I'm saying in here is out of line... and I apologize again for that. I just want everyone to be happy and for everyone to feel respected as individuals(sorry I'm Canadian).

 

[Dave Martell]

Firstly I'd like to formally apologize to Mr. Martell, what I said really wasn't needed and probably just poured salt on the wound, I probably should of sent my thoughts in PM or FB or IG on a private channel and I apologize for my antagonistic behavior, the Pierre reference was a step too far as he at least communicates. As most people know I am a fan of martells work and have openly stated he probably makes the cleanest hidden tang yo handle on the market, easily being on par with most if not all master blade smiths. My main concern is that his reputation continues to dwindle, and as someone who respects daves work I did not want this too happen, he's an interesting guy with interesting posts and makes interesting knives and handles. I like Dave, I like Dave a lot and it hurts me to see. I say this because when I mentioned he should redo my takamura I had several forum members tell me that may not be a good idea, and if they are doing that to me, they are probably doing that to others. I want Dave to succeed, I want to see Dave make more bad ass knives and continue to develop his craft, I want dave to be able to charge what his knives are actually worth vs the over 9000 price drops weve been seeing lately. I know what I'm saying in here is out of line... and I apologize again for that. I just want everyone to be happy and for everyone to feel respected as individuals(sorry I'm Canadian).

Thank you for this Evan.

 

[Dave Martell]

I get it. At the same time maybe stop taking new custom work until you get everything else sorted out.

You're correct that would be best and I wish I could.

 

[Godslayer]

Again I'm sorry. I get mad because I care.

 

[Dave Martell]

Again I'm sorry. I get mad because I care.

No hard feelings here Evan. Thanks for your concern.

 

[panda]

man what a mess. i didnt want to get involved as i don't have a lick in this situation but i am curious, has everyone in the backlog been acknowledged? as in shoot each of them an email that you are aware the work owed and perhaps where they stand in the queue.

i know it must suck waiting for stuff, but some of you wait years just to get on a waiting list so what's the difference? also be reminiscent that kkf wouldn't even exist without dave. cut the man some slack.

 

[ecchef]

I think what a lot of people don’t understand is that a significant number of vendors here work on shoestring budgets, do not have a staff of office admins, actually do have real medical issues, and need to engage in side work to keep their heads above water. Artisan work is unfortunately incompatible with today’s idiotic ‘immediate satisfaction’ lifestyles; a custom handle should take between “2-4 hours”...really? With what, a 3D printer?
There have been several quality handle & knifemakers here that have gotten in over their heads and have subsequently either atoned for their mistakes or just disappeared. Martell’s work is as good as (and probably better than) most of his peers, who also have long wait times. If it wasn’t, he wouldn’t have such a backlog, would he?
For those of you that still don’t get it, go buy an $800 piece of shite from Chelsea Miller or jump on the latest Kickstarter crapfest. I’m sure you’ll be much happier.

 

[dwalker]

As a member who seriously considered spending my hard earned cash with Dave on a custom, I was extremely intrigued with the reputation of his finished knives.

I was then turned off from the idea due to the reputation that I may be waiting way longer than quoted, and, in the mean time, "production knives" (those offered for sale without a commission from a client) would hit BST regularly to pay the bills.

I have no dog in this fight, but, with hopes of helping Dave, I wanted to share what I, along with many other potential clients, must feel about the situation.

This, with the lack of transparency, has to be dissuading many people from spending money. Take it for what it is worth, but in my opinion, this can't last very much longer. Loyal customers can only carry you so far.

I sincerely hope it works out.

 

[mille162]

man what a mess. i didnt want to get involved as i don't have a lick in this situation but i am curious, has everyone in the backlog been acknowledged? as in shoot each of them an email that you are aware the work owed and perhaps where they stand in the queue.

i know it must suck waiting for stuff, but some of you wait years just to get on a waiting list so what's the difference? also be reminiscent that kkf wouldn't even exist without dave. cut the man some slack.

This was my request. PUT UP A LIST so we can all see where we are and just how bad the "backlog" is. I AM a customer, I've prepaid and Dave had 2 of my knives now. I only asked Dave, as he's "doing the best he can", and giving us in the que vague updates like "it will be just another 2-3 months" (in January, after a 10 month wait already), to be honest with us and let us all know the where we stand in the que.

He has ads running on the forum, no? He's buying new supplies to make new knives, no? Well, he must be spending money he shouldn't be as many of us prepaid for work and have not received the service yet. Consumer protection laws specifically prohibit the reselling of services without the ability to perform them. Now, we can take Dave's word that he's "doing the best he can" but when I asked for a sign of good faith by showing us what his work list is and where we, the prepaid customers, stand on it, he refused to do so. Dave does admit to still taking on new work, and creating new products and selling them, and yet the prepaid work is just put on hold. Am I the only customer, or are there 500 certificates for prepaid work out there unable to be redeemed in a reasonable amount of time?

PENNSYLVANIA UNFAIR TRADE PRACTICES AND CONSUMER PROTECTION LAW
§201-2. Definitions
(x) Advertising goods or services with intent not to supply reasonably expectable public demand, unless the advertisement discloses a limitation of quantity.

Before anyone comments on having this conversation here as opposed to a private discussion with Dave, you should know that Dave responded to my private email request for an update on a date for my work to be completed, with a link to this thread, and no answer on a timeline, so I feel he has OPENLY ASKED HIS CUSTOMERS TO DISCUSS IT PUBLICLY HERE. Prior to his email, I was unaware of this thread as it's buried in Dave's subforum!

I've gotten one rehandle done by him, it looked great, I was excited to have more of my knives done. However, he's running a business and after 16 months, he is not willing to give me a timeline for the work (correction, he's given me several deadlines, all of which have long since passed), or an indication as to where I am in the list, and what the expected timeline is for completing my work.

Many here have offered suggestions on how to save his business and better operate but Dave is spending time here on the forum and posting "I wish I could" and thank you's instead of spending time in the shop getting through the work load.

At this point, I'm more concerned with my knives disappearing in a stack of boxes in his garage when his business goes under!

Dave is openly admitting he is unable to deliver the work he has already been paid for and is offering no solutions for those customers on here who are out the money (and possibly losing our knives)...why is he allowed to still sell here on the forum???

 

[Dave Martell]

This was my request. PUT UP A LIST so we can all see where we are and just how bad the "backlog" is. I AM a customer, I've prepaid and Dave had 2 of my knives now. I only asked Dave, as he's "doing the best he can", and giving us in the que vague updates like "it will be just another 2-3 months" (in January, after a 10 month wait already), to be honest with us and let us all know the where we stand in the que.

He has ads running on the forum, no? He's buying new supplies to make new knives, no? Well, he must be spending money he shouldn't be as many of us prepaid for work and have not received the service yet. Consumer protection laws specifically prohibit the reselling of services without the ability to perform them. Now, we can take Dave's word that he's "doing the best he can" but when I asked for a sign of good faith by showing us what his work list is and where we, the prepaid customers, stand on it, he refused to do so. Dave does admit to still taking on new work, and creating new products and selling them, and yet the prepaid work is just put on hold. Am I the only customer, or are there 500 certificates for prepaid work out there unable to be redeemed in a reasonable amount of time?

PENNSYLVANIA UNFAIR TRADE PRACTICES AND CONSUMER PROTECTION LAW
§201-2. Definitions
(x) Advertising goods or services with intent not to supply reasonably expectable public demand, unless the advertisement discloses a limitation of quantity.

Before anyone comments on having this conversation here as opposed to a private discussion with Dave, you should know that Dave responded to my private email request for an update on a date for my work to be completed, with a link to this thread, and no answer on a timeline, so I feel he has OPENLY ASKED HIS CUSTOMERS TO DISCUSS IT PUBLICLY HERE. Prior to his email, I was unaware of this thread as it's buried in Dave's subforum!

I've gotten one rehandle done by him, it looked great, I was excited to have more of my knives done. However, he's running a business and after 16 months, he is not willing to give me a timeline for the work (correction, he's given me several deadlines, all of which have long since passed), or an indication as to where I am in the list, and what the expected timeline is for completing my work.

Many here have offered suggestions on how to save his business and better operate but Dave is spending time here on the forum and posting "I wish I could" and thank you's instead of spending time in the shop getting through the work load.

At this point, I'm more concerned with my knives disappearing in a stack of boxes in his garage when his business goes under!

Dave is openly admitting he is unable to deliver the work he has already been paid for and is offering no solutions for those customers on here who are out the money (and possibly losing our knives)...why is he allowed to still sell here on the forum???

Ron Hansen,
I do appreciate your input here as I'm sure you'll appreciate mine.

First is that your knives (and wood blocks) were shipped out this afternoon so you'll have them back in your possession within a day or so.

Again, I'm very sorry for holding your one knife for 16 months, then allowing you to talk me into sending in another knife 6 months ago to add to the pile. Funny thing is that I just opened your boxes last night to see two knives that I don't re-handle anyway, that would have gone over well no doubt.

Dave

 

[Dave Martell]

Dave is openly admitting he is unable to deliver the work he has already been paid for and is offering no solutions for those customers on here who are out the money (and possibly losing our knives)...why is he allowed to still sell here on the forum???

Would bankruptcy serve you better than waiting?

 

[Anton]

Would bankruptcy serve you better than waiting?

I don’t get into these and I’m surely not defending or agreeing with not delivering paid work, but here it goes at my own expense...

I admire your work and craftsmanship - keep it pro as the pro you are and want to continue being, don’t dig yourself deeper with commentary like this and building a defense, I’m sure it’s hard to take the attacks but imo own them, hunk down and plow away to get out of the hole.

Bad communication is usually the worst weapon when we are in the mud, but frankly anything specially business, communication may just be what keeps anyone away from serious troubles

 

[Dave Martell]

I don’t get into these and I’m surely not defending or agreeing with not delivering paid work, but here it goes at my own expense...

I admire your work and craftsmanship - keep it pro as the pro you are and want to continue being, don’t dig yourself deeper with commentary like this and building a defense, I’m sure it’s hard to take the attacks but imo own them, hunk down and plow away to get out of the hole.

Bad communication is usually the worst weapon when we are in the mud, but frankly anything specially business, communication may just be what keeps anyone away from serious troubles

I swear I'm trying Anton. Thanks for the encouragement.

 

[Dave Martell]

As a member who seriously considered spending my hard earned cash with Dave on a custom, I was extremely intrigued with the reputation of his finished knives.

I was then turned off from the idea due to the reputation that I may be waiting way longer than quoted, and, in the mean time, "production knives" (those offered for sale without a commission from a client) would hit BST regularly to pay the bills.

I have no dog in this fight, but, with hopes of helping Dave, I wanted to share what I, along with many other potential clients, must feel about the situation.

This, with the lack of transparency, has to be dissuading many people from spending money. Take it for what it is worth, but in my opinion, this can't last very much longer. Loyal customers can only carry you so far.

I sincerely hope it works out.

Thanks for your input, I'm listening.

 

[daveb]

We're fortunate here to have several outstanding craftsmen among our ranks, Dave among them. Unfortunately they seem to fall into one of two groups. Craftsman like Haburn and Bloodroot do exceptional work and run their business like a business - communication is a strong suit. Hence there is seldom if ever a complaint. Others are equally good with the craftsman part but the communications is not so good. I don't think even Dave would argue that he's in the second group.

Forum readers / members don't need to look very hard to see which craftsmen are in which groups. This thread has served it's purpose of allowing members awaiting work to communicate their issues. And Dave is getting some deserved grief. But it is not a place for a chitshow.

If you have work with Dave, I hope (and am confident) that it will work out. And feel free to continue to air problems in this or subsequent threads. If you don't have a dog in this hunt, pls refrain.

 

[panda]

 

[Dave Martell]

We're fortunate here to have several outstanding craftsmen among our ranks, Dave among them. Unfortunately they seem to fall into one of two groups. Craftsman like Haburn and Bloodroot do exceptional work and run their business like a business - communication is a strong suit. Hence there is seldom if ever a complaint. Others are equally good with the craftsman part but the communications is not so good. I don't think even Dave would argue that he's in the second group.

I am indeed in the group of poor communicators. I used to be considered to be the opposite though, even a very quick turnaround craftsman as well but both issues changed when I fell behind.

I do, however, still actively communicate with customers while I'm working on their knives, or getting ready to -then they hear from me quite a bit. I see little point to sending out emails, and opening discussions that take away time, just to tell a customer what they already know. This is, to me, stupid work. Do people find this comforting to be constantly reminded of what they already know? Maybe they do and I'm missing that?

 

[panda]

dave you have to realize people are mostly sheep, they like to be coddled. i agree it's stupid but that's the reality. it makes them feel special, even if it's just to say 'same as yesterday' it's like they are waiting on a text.

 

[daveb]

Dave, I can only speak to this from my own experience with your work. A rehandle (with coupon), a couple Stefan installs, took longer than I expected but I'm patient, no communication from you until you posted pics on your forum of my finished knives. I don't think it would be stupid to drop a note saying you've received the work, you're starting the work, you've finished the work. Yes it would be comforting - I'm sure people aren't sending off their Tojiro's for you to work your magic on.

 

[Godslayer]

I think theres some good ideas here, the main thing is communication and maybe rethink the holding peoples knives thing, I can understand having a few on back, but if you've got more then a months on hand it isn't necessary and would avoid many headaches