VG steels

[Nemo]

I've noticed a few knives in VG1 and VG5 recently.

I guess VG10 is well known, although it's a steel that I have limited experience with. I have sharpened it once (a Macusta petty) and it required pretty attentive deburring but then did give a very dangerous feeling edge on Chosera 1k, Naniwa Diamond 6k progression and has pretty good edge retention.

From zknives:

Composition Comparison Graph For The Knife Steels Aichi AUS10, Hitachi GIN-3, Takefu VG-10, Takefu VG1, Takefu VG5 Version 4.36

(thanks @Gator, if you are listening).

It seems like VG1 is fairly similar to Ginsanko, a steel which I enjoy sharpening and also has pretty decent retention.

It seems like vg5 is closer to AUS10, a steel which I haven’t sharpened but seems to have a decent reputation for sharpening and edge stability. FWIW, I quite liked sharpening the AUS8 that I have sharpened but didn't love the edge stability or retention.

Anyone got any sharpening, edge stability, edge retention or metallurgical experience or wisdom to share on these steels?

 

[MowgFace]

I actually really like AUS8 and AUS10. I would agree that sharpenabilty is one of its strong suits, and definitely didn’t excel in stability nor retention, but with nicely ground knives aiming for a thicker overall edge does not sacrifice too much in perceived sharpness while strengthening the edge for increased stability.

Something to note; knives in VG1, 5, AUS8/10 can be found in monosteel, which affects the stability and retention by different means. (Though there is a VG10 mono steel by Kagayaki)

 

[blokey]

I like VG1, seems fine, tho even with same composition most Ginsan just seems to have better sharpenbility and edge stability for some reason, maybe related to manufacturing process? @Larrin @Troopah_Knives

Adding to the confusion, here’s another similar steel used by Masahiro, Suisin also use 19c27 in their Inox Honyaki line
http://zknives.com/knives/steels/mbs-26.shtml

 

[MowgFace]

I like VG1, seems fine, tho even with same composition most Ginsan just seems to have better sharpenbility and edge stability for some reason, maybe related to manufacturing process? @Larrin

Adding to the confusion, here’s another similar steel used by Masahiro, Suisin also use 19c27 in their Inox Honyaki line
http://zknives.com/knives/steels/mbs-26.shtml

19c17 in SIH was one of the first “Geometry Cutters” I remember when I was first around the forums. Thin that b*tch and put a fat 45deg single sided microbevel.

 

[Benuser]

Something to note; knives in VG1, 5, AUS8/10 can be found in monosteel, which affects the stability and retention by different means. (Though there is a VG10 mono steel by Kagayaki)

Haven't noticed any problem with monosteel VG-10 by Hattori, though.

 

[blokey]

Haven't noticed any problem with monosteel VG-10 by Hattori, though.

I always wonder about those knives, I know I shouldn’t be judging by the choil but everyone I see just seems really similar to Nenox grind:

 

[Benuser]

I always wonder about those knives, I know I shouldn’t be judging by the choil but everyone I see just seems really similar to Nenox grind:

Would like to see the photo!

 

[Jovidah]

I'm mostly wondering who makes them. I recall reading rumors that at least early on they were made by Ryusen but I don't know if that's still the case?
What's cool about them is that they're actually one of the few mono VG-10 knives on the market.

 

[blokey]

Would like to see the photo!

I saw them on JCK and BST sometimes, would love to get a hand on one tho

https://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/threads/hattori-fh-gyuto-270mm.50022/

 

[blokey]

I'm mostly wondering who makes them. I recall reading rumors that at least early on they were made by Ryusen but I don't know if that's still the case?
What's cool about them is that they're actually one of the few mono VG-10 knives on the market.

Tsukiji Masamoto makes one but it’s hard to get, Ichimonji makes one too in both Wa and western handle
https://global.ichimonji.co.jp/collections/gyuto/products/fv10-gyuto-chef-knife
Edit: Also JCK
https://japanesechefsknife.com/coll...-vg-10-series-wa-gyuto-210mm-to-270mm-3-sizes

 

[Qapla']

I wonder if Ichimonji Mitsuhide's one and Kikuichimonji's one are related? The bolster design seems quite similar.

https://www.kikuichimonji.com/product-list/46

 

[blokey]

I wonder if Ichimonji Mitsuhide's one and Kikuichimonji's one are related? The bolster design seems quite similar.

https://www.kikuichimonji.com/product-list/46

Seems very likely

 

[stringer]

Tsukiji Masamoto makes one but it’s hard to get, Ichimonji makes one too in both Wa and western handle
https://global.ichimonji.co.jp/collections/gyuto/products/fv10-gyuto-chef-knife
Edit: Also JCK
https://japanesechefsknife.com/coll...-vg-10-series-wa-gyuto-210mm-to-270mm-3-sizes

Korin's Masanobu line is VG10 mono also. An old chef of mine had one and I quite liked it. Excellent fit and finish. Not too difficult to deburr. Decent retention.

 

[blokey]

Korin's Masanobu line is VG10 mono also. An old chef of mine had one and I quite liked it. Excellent fit and finish. Not too difficult to deburr. Decent retention.

Interesting, quoting @MowgFace here, is there something that would affect edge stability and other aspect in mono vs cladded knife?

Something to note; knives in VG1, 5, AUS8/10 can be found in monosteel, which affects the stability and retention by different means. (Though there is a VG10 mono steel by Kagayaki)

 

[stringer]

Korin's Masanobu line is VG10 mono also. An old chef of mine had one and I quite liked it. Excellent fit and finish. Not too difficult to deburr. Decent retention.

It looks like they are only available in santoku and 7"gyuto at the moment

 

[stringer]

Interesting, quoting @MowgFace here, is there something that would affect edge stability and other aspect in mono vs cladded knife?

I don't know how it could affect retention. But I do think that mono feels different on the board than an identical clad knife. But it could be all in my head.

 

[Benuser]

But I do think that mono feels different on the board than an identical clad knife. But it could be all in my head.

Sure...
Soft stainless cladding does cause a damped feeling. Much will depend on how much of the core is kept free. Part of good maintenance is removing some of the cladding. Just as you remove a bit of wood when sharpening a pencil.

 

[Qapla']

I've noticed a few knives in VG1 and VG5 recently.
It seems like VG1 is fairly similar to Ginsanko, a steel which I enjoy sharpening and also has pretty decent retention.

If you like VG-1 and VG-10, then you might also check out VG-7, which is similar.

Makoto Kurosaki seems to make some knives out of it.
https://www.chefknivestogo.com/makotoryusei.html
Outside the kitchen, you might also check out things like N690.

 

[Barmoley]

Interesting, quoting @MowgFace here, is there something that would affect edge stability and other aspect in mono vs cladded knife?

Stability of the edge and retention not very likely. How would cladding affect these? Maybe it went all the way to the edge, but that usually doesn't happen.

As far as feel on the board many say they can feel it, I always wonder what mechanism would explain this. Cladding is welded to the core, so much so that we see carbon migration from the core to the cladding in some cases, sometimes requiring a nickel barrier. The core is harder than cladding though so maybe the sound is different and that's what is perceived. I can't tell the difference when the geometry and dimensions of the knives are similar, but there are many reports that some people can.

 

[Nemo]

If you like VG-1 and VG-10, then you might also check out VG-7, which is similar.

It's not so much that I like VG10 or VG1. I have limited experience with the former and none with the latter. I'm more interested to know how the VG steels other than VG10 perform.

Does VG1 perform similarly to G3? Does VG5 perform similarly to Aus10? Or are they more prone to tenacious burrs, as VG10 is? Obviously I realise that the HT will have a significant impact.

 

[Troopah_Knives]

I like VG1, seems fine, tho even with same composition most Ginsan just seems to have better sharpenbility and edge stability for some reason, maybe related to manufacturing process? @Larrin @Troopah_Knives

Adding to the confusion, here’s another similar steel used by Masahiro, Suisin also use 19c27 in their Inox Honyaki line
http://zknives.com/knives/steels/mbs-26.shtml

VG-1 is very similar to (practically identical) to Ginsan from a composition standpoint. VG-10 is also honestly pretty close to Ginsan, a bit more Cr+Mo and the Co addition but nothing earth-shattering. At the end of the day, these steels are all conventionally made high alloy ingot steels so (much more so than PM steel) the production process matters a ton for the final properties of the steel. Different ingot solidification times, homogenization treatments, hot working percentages, etc. will all affect the final microstructure of the steel.

I have one knife in VG1 (one of the Hitohira mono steel lines) which seems to have some pretty visible banding showing which I have not really seen on any ginsan blades but that is far from the only measure of microstructure. If someone wants to cut apart their ginsan and vg1 knives to send to me I'd be more than happy to micrograph them.

 

[blokey]

VG-1 is very similar to (practically identical) to Ginsan from a composition standpoint. VG-10 is also honestly pretty close to Ginsan, a bit more Cr+Mo and the Co addition but nothing earth-shattering. At the end of the day, these steels are all conventionally made high alloy ingot steels so (much more so than PM steel) the production process matters a ton for the final properties of the steel. Different ingot solidification times, homogenization treatments, hot working percentages, etc. will all affect the final microstructure of the steel.

I have one knife in VG1 (one of the Hitohira mono steel lines) which seems to have some pretty visible banding showing which I have not really seen on any ginsan blades but that is far from the only measure of microstructure. If someone wants to cut apart their ginsan and vg1 knives to send to me I'd be more than happy to micrograph them.

Thanks! Let’s see if we can get something for cheap…

 

[Nemo]

VG-1 is very similar to (practically identical) to Ginsan from a composition standpoint. VG-10 is also honestly pretty close to Ginsan, a bit more Cr+Mo and the Co addition but nothing earth-shattering. At the end of the day, these steels are all conventionally made high alloy ingot steels so (much more so than PM steel) the production process matters a ton for the final properties of the steel. Different ingot solidification times, homogenization treatments, hot working percentages, etc. will all affect the final microstructure of the steel.

I have one knife in VG1 (one of the Hitohira mono steel lines) which seems to have some pretty visible banding showing which I have not really seen on any ginsan blades but that is far from the only measure of microstructure. If someone wants to cut apart their ginsan and vg1 knives to send to me I'd be more than happy to micrograph them.

If I can paraphrase what you wrote to confirm that I understand it correctly:

You are saying that it's not so much the composition of these steels (as they are all fairly similar) but the specific manufacturing process (and presumably the final HT on top of this) that determines the microstructure and thus the steel's properties?

 

[blokey]

VG-1 is very similar to (practically identical) to Ginsan from a composition standpoint. VG-10 is also honestly pretty close to Ginsan, a bit more Cr+Mo and the Co addition but nothing earth-shattering.

This is another thing that kind bothers me… with the small amount of Co and Cr VG10 just seems to has much worse toughness, would it be better just take the Co out? And there’s so many similar Co added knife steel like ZA-18, ATS314, N690 and 10Cr15CoMoV, does this composition has some unique advantages in manufacturing?

 

[SwampDonkey]

I've been quite happy with my Makotos in VG7. Feels fairly similar to ginsan but tougher, not a whole lot of info on that steel but I've been enjoying it. Keeps its initial bite longer than VG10 but seems to do same thing on settling in to a usable edge for quite a long time.

 

[Troopah_Knives]

If I can paraphrase what you wrote to confirm that I understand it correctly:

You are saying that it's not so much the composition of these steels (as they are all fairly similar) but the specific manufacturing process (and presumably the final HT on top of this) that determines the microstructure and thus the steel's properties?

Yeah pretty close. Basically, the compositions of VG1, VG10, and Ginsan are all close enough that the specific manufacturing process is likely more important to the final properties than the differences in composition between them.

This is another thing that kind bothers me… with the small amount of Co and Cr VG10 just seems to has much worse toughness, would it be better just take the Co out? And there’s so many similar Co added knife steel like ZA-18, ATS314, N690 and 10Cr15CoMoV, does this composition has some unique advantages in manufacturing?

I don't think we have any toughness data of VG-10 vs VG-10 without the Co, so I don't think we can say the Co is necessarily hurting the toughness. In Larrin's newest book, he talks a bit about some of the early stainless steels and Co was added in small amounts to those, so it's possible that it is just a holdover from older steels (VG-10 is a very old steel). It does change the precipitation hardening in other steels so it's possible it was added for improved hardness when using coatings that are applied at high temperatures.

I think we don't really know enough about these steels yet to say much about what/if the small differences in the alloy are changing between them (partially because we don't even know exactly what their composition is. The closest alloy to Ginsan Larrin has tested is 19C27 which has a carbon content on the extreme low end on the Ginsan spec and Cr at the lower end as well. So it is possible that Ginsan is quite different in composition as well as possible manufacturing details. We have seen that VG-10 has very low toughness and a correspondingly coarse carbide structure but don't have any data for the other steel discussed here.

 

[blokey]

Yeah pretty close. Basically, the compositions of VG1, VG10, and Ginsan are all close enough that the specific manufacturing process is likely more important to the final properties than the differences in composition between them.

I don't think we have any toughness data of VG-10 vs VG-10 without the Co, so I don't think we can say the Co is necessarily hurting the toughness. In Larrin's newest book, he talks a bit about some of the early stainless steels and Co was added in small amounts to those, so it's possible that it is just a holdover from older steels (VG-10 is a very old steel). It does change the precipitation hardening in other steels so it's possible it was added for improved hardness when using coatings that are applied at high temperatures.

I think we don't really know enough about these steels yet to say much about what/if the small differences in the alloy are changing between them (partially because we don't even know exactly what their composition is. The closest alloy to Ginsan Larrin has tested is 19C27 which has a carbon content on the extreme low end on the Ginsan spec and Cr at the lower end as well. So it is possible that Ginsan is quite different in composition as well as possible manufacturing details. We have seen that VG-10 has very low toughness and a correspondingly coarse carbide structure but don't have any data for the other steel discussed here.

Interesting, thanks! I will try get some cheap Ginsan knife if possible and send it to you for some comparison.

Would something like this work?
https://www.hocho-knife.com/sakai-jikko-premium-master-ii-petty-knife-utility-120mm/
One interesting steel is VG7, which is kind like VG10 but Tungsten
https://www.e-tokko.com/v_gold_7.php?lang=en

 

[blokey]

Just remembered Xinguo is working with some Ginsan, let me see if l can get some cut offs…

 

[Jovidah]

Interesting, quoting @MowgFace here, is there something that would affect edge stability and other aspect in mono vs cladded knife?

I don't see why going mono would affect the edge in any way. For me the main difference I notice is that the cutting feedback is different. A bit harder, more direct and less dampened on monosteel.

 

[HumbleHomeCook]

So I've had an interesting relationship with VG-10. It started with my Spyderco knives which admittedly run soft, probably 58ish. It was one of those EDC workhorse steels that was quickly being dismissed as passed it's prime by the time I could afford better knives. But I loved it. Coming from a background heavy in the likes of 420HC and being a mediocre, at best, sharpener, it really filled a lot of my needs while still being abradable with my Nortons and Arks. Or at least I felt like it was.

Eventually I had a couple kitchen knives in VG-10 and sharpened a couple for others. Of course these were a step up in hardness but all were still a little thick at the edge. I still felt like I could sharpen them decently and still liked VG-10. Then I started reading the internet that told me VG-10 was a less desirable steel and hard to deburr.

Obviously, that hadn't been my experience but I also knew my sharpening skills weren't nearly as good as those I was watching and reading, or at least as good as I assumed they were. And so, I found myself shunning VG-10.

I told myself I didn't think it was that bad but that was probably because of my subpar skills. But now I find myself attracted to a couple VG-10 knives. I find myself pondering a couple things...

No doubt my sharpening skills, and by extension standards, have progressed quite a lot over the past few years. I'm no expert by any means and I don't always get edges that cause paper towels to cower in fear but I do alright. So I wonder, would I now truly not be as impressed with VG-10 and regret the purchase? Would I be fine with it since I can do better and have better tools? Did my use of Arks help minimize the burr formation to begin with?

Is it time to give it another chance?