Vintage Henckels Info

[Heckel7302]

I wrote to Henckels to try to get more info on their vintage knives, in particular any way to help date them, especially the 102 and 225 lines. Well, they weren't super helpful, but did send some info, so thought I would share. It's interesting to see what real original profiles these had as a comparison when looking for ones available today.

From them

• First images of this knife can be found in an American catalogue from 1924, see scan 1 attached (knife number 100 + 102)
• The Grand Prize knives are also shown in a catalogue from 1951, see scan 2 attached (knife number 100, 102+ 225). The knife descriptions in the scans attached show you the materials the knives are made of.
• Nice to know: These knives are named after the World Exhibition in St. Louis in 1904, where ZWILLING J.A. Henckels participated and won the highest award (see scan 3 attached)

 

[coxhaus]

Those are some old Henckels.

 

[Ericfg]

Cool thread!
Let me add some images from my collection;
In my notes this is dated 1958. Not sure how accurate the date is.

Not sure of the date on this. Note the 5 digit model numbers.

The next two come with a handwritten note dated 1933. I believe that date is accurate.

Note the "must be stainless" annotation.
Also of interest is none of these images show the Henckels model number stamped on the blade itself.

 

[Ericfg]

I wrote to Henckels to try to get more info on their vintage knives, in particular any way to help date them, especially the 102 and 225 lines. Well, they weren't super helpful, but did send some info, so thought I would share. It's interesting to see what real original profiles these had as a comparison when looking for ones available today.

From them

• First images of this knife can be found in an American catalogue from 1924, see scan 1 attached (knife number 100 + 102)
• The Grand Prize knives are also shown in a catalogue from 1951, see scan 2 attached (knife number 100, 102+ 225). The knife descriptions in the scans attached show you the materials the knives are made of.
• Nice to know: These knives are named after the World Exhibition in St. Louis in 1904, where ZWILLING J.A. Henckels participated and won the highest award (see scan 3 attached)

I wrote the Zwilling in Germany late last month and got a reply today. They are working from home due to covid, so that explains the delay. Weird thing is I got the exact same 3 attachments as you showed, and essential the same message as well.
Was your email from Johann T.?

 

[Heckel7302]

No name on my email. Just from “customer service team”.

 

[Ericfg]

No name on my email. Just from “customer service team”.

Mine came from the "Assistentin Global Head of Marketing Communications". That does not bode well.

 

[Ericfg]

Got some more images from the company archivist (who has been extremely helpful) two days ago.
This first one comes from a catalog dated 1902:

And the next images come from a 1914 catalog:

 

[Ericfg]

More images from the 1914 catalog:

Amazing that they had SO many different options available, just for tableware, back in 1914.

 

[Ericfg]

I received this set recently:

And got this image from the archivist:

And this was his written reply: "The original packaging with the imprint of the item number NS1257 helped me to find something in the archive quickly.
I was able to find this cutlery in the 1954 USA catalog. I could not find this cutlery in earlier and later catalogs.
It’s a No-Stain-blade. The handles are glazed, black hard rubber handles. TWINWORKS says it was produced only for the American market."

BTW, the 'Twinworks' stamping for the US market versus 'Zwillingswerks' for the German market was something I've been assuming for a while now.

 

[Ericfg]

Here's a page from an (allegedly) 1968 catalog with an insert dated 1970. I assume this catalog is for the US market.
What is of interest to me is they are still using the 3 digit model numbers at this late date.
And they also include 5 digit model numbers as well so I think this gives us an idea when those 5 digit numbers came into existence.

For reference google tells me that $13 in 1970 is equivalent in purchasing power to about $97.93 today, And looking at the ZwillingUS website their 'Four Star' model 8 inch chef's knife lists for $176 and is on sale for $99.99. So those numbers seem to be in line.

 

[Ericfg]

I found out last week(late January 2023) that the 'archivist' position at J.A.Henckles/Zwilling has been eliminated. Meaning we cannot get info like this any longer.

 

[Benuser]

I found out last week(late January 2023) that the 'archivist' position at J.A.Henckles/Zwilling has been eliminated. Meaning we cannot get info like this any longer.

How about Frau Assistentin Global Head of Marketing Communications?

 

[Ericfg]

Some info I've learned after some drunken research:
I've seen, in J.A.Henckels catalogs,:
"Twinworks", in English in 1915
In the same 1915 catalog I've seen the terms 'polished black wood', 'ebony', 'brown wood', 'cocoa', and 'beechwood' for scales on kitchen knives.
I've seen model numbers, on paper, as early as 1887.
I've seen model numbers on razor tangs as early as 1902
I've seen "No Stain" stamps as early as the 1920s.
"White handle stamp 1920s" (I don't even know what that means)
One BIG thing I can't seem to find is when JAH started stamping their model numbers physically on their knives.
The 'Pin-Rivet-Pin' method of attaching kitchen knife scales is seen in the 1920s.
The 'clamshell' logo on shears as late as 1933.
The five or six pins scales attachment as late as 1954.
The only time I've seen bird's-eye rivets, on paper, is 1935.

 

[Ericfg]

I just did a primer on older Henckels handles. What they look like and how the scales are affixed. In the image below the top three handles are images from actual Henckels sales catalogs. The rest of the handles are actual knives from my collection.

These are, I'd confidently say, all pre-1960. And these aren't all of them either, I'll have to update this in the future although this is probably the lion's share of the earlier 20th Century handles.

 

[Ericfg]

Dating help:

From Henckels customer service: "Kindly note that we do not have an exact date, however, from the Friodur logo observed on the blade, the knife was manufactured some time between 1950 and 1969. Most likely the 1950's going by the rivets* in the handle."

* Those are pins in all likelihood.

 

[Ericfg]

Had a question come up on Reddit the other day about Henckels 4 Star knives without a bolster. One guy opined that they are "fakes" since the 4 Star knife line has the full bolster.
I'm here to show you that's not true:

This image is from a 1990 Henx catalog that I own. A few thoughts:
1) The fact that Henx offered these knives without a bolster at all, in 1990, is surprising. They also had a line of bolsterless knives with riveted, wooden handles, without the ferrule.
2) These are rare as hen's teeth. I'm a Henx collector and I've never seen one of these in the wild. Although I should add I don't actively search for these post-1970 Henckels knives.
3) Some numbnut on social media said 'fAke!1!!". FFS. To that poster's credit when I showed him proof he did say 'Sorry, I stand corrected.'
3a) Who would "fake" a Henckels 4Star knife?
3b) As a coin and militaria as well as a Henckels collector for a loooong time I often see these "fAkE11!1!" posts, most often without any explanation. It's frustrating to see disinformation spread around social media.

 

[Ericfg]

The following is a collage of a group that went up on Ebay last month. The seller says it was some sort of 'sales display', and also says "Store was located in China Town in San Francisco. Closed in 50's. That's all I know." All(MOST?) of the knives have two small holes drilled vertically into the right side scale. I assume they were wired to a backing board and displayed horizontally.
So 'closed in the 1950s' may help date those specific model #s and handle fixation methods.
The collage of most if not all of his listings:

As a dedicated J.A.Henckels collector I was dumbfounded when I saw these pop up. Just an amazing collection.

 

[Heckel7302]

Quite the NOS haul!

 

[Ericfg]

Quite the NOS haul!

Yeah, thanks. I should have mentioned that ALL those were unused, or seemed to be.

 

[Ericfg]

Very vaguely knife related, mostly because they're made by J.A.Henckels, but since I'm a Henckels collector I'd thought I'd share these... axe-heads.

These have popped up on ebay the last few months and I'm glad my searches caught them because I had absolutely no idea Henckels made axe-heads.
All sold by the same guy who seems to be quite paranoid about other axe collectors.
One thing that surprised me is that they all sold for between $200 & $400 bucks!
Also, they are all marked Friodur which is, of course, Henckels' proprietary steel hardening process.
And a couple have RZM stampings which means they were made in the TR between roughly 1935-'45.

 

[Benuser]

I hope your remark about Henckels' proprietary steel was sarcasm. The marketing boys with Henckels sell the most common 4116 and AEB-L as proprietary. Wouldn't know why people would buy a stainless axe. Makes no sense, easy sharpening being a first requirement.

 

[deltaplex]

Very vaguely knife related, mostly because they're made by J.A.Henckels, but since I'm a Henckels collector I'd thought I'd share these... axe-heads.View attachment 360863
These have popped up on ebay the last few months and I'm glad my searches caught them because I had absolutely no idea Henckels made axe-heads.
All sold by the same guy who seems to be quite paranoid about other axe collectors.
One thing that surprised me is that they all sold for between $200 & $400 bucks!
Also, they are all marked Friodur which is, of course, Henckels' proprietary stainless steel.
And a couple have RZM stampings which means they were made in the TR between roughly 1935-'45.

Friodur is in reference to their ice-hardening process, not the steel. Many (many many) of Henckles straight razors are stamped Friodur and they're carbon steel.

 

[Benuser]

Friodur is in reference to their ice-hardening process, not the steel. Many (many many) of Henckles straight razors are stamped Friodur and they're carbon steel.

Thanks!

 

[Ericfg]

I hope your remark about Henckels' proprietary steel was sarcasm.

I misspoke. It has been corrected.

 

[Benuser]

I misspoke. It has been corrected.

I see. Thanks.

 

[Ericfg]

FYI this image is of the logo stamp on a WW1 bayonet with 1916 acceptance stamps.

While the logo hasn't changed much in 100+ years the method of application over that time has.

 

[sanmateo]

FYI this image is of the logo stamp on a WW1 bayonet with 1916 acceptance stamps.
View attachment 367098


While the logo hasn't changed much in 100+ years the method of application over that time has.

I take it this was a bayonet carried by the Wehrmacht?

 

[Benuser]

I take it this was a bayonet carried by the Wehrmacht?

Not by the Wehrmacht, which was the name of the army in the Nazi era from 1935. During the WW1 the name was Deutsches Heer.

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deutsches_Heer_(Deutsches_Kaiserreich)