Watanabe

[TheCaptain]

Tjangula, since you asked, this is my collection minus one...

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This is my newest- a nakiri shaped like a cleaver...

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The top one is a thin cleaver, the bottom actually a nakiri.

These are the professional line, mostly blue steel and keyaki handles.

Holy moly I thought TJ was kidding about 40+ Wats.

Can I confess to wanting to try every one of them?

 

[Jkts]

It was a challenge to take a picture of the set. I'll wait til i get a few more before doing another family photo.

Watanabes are about geometry, in the sense that it's not just the bevel angle and thinness of the overall blade, but the angles and thickness further behind the edge that impact smooth cutting or wedging, as well as factors that shape the knife as it is sharpened (and thinned) over years. Shinichi would use the same geometry whether KU or not. In that taking off KU would be similar to thinning in general, perhaps to maintain the angles he wants, the edge might be a tiny bit further out.

I believe that geometry is why people comment that his knives aren't lasers, yet most talk about how great they are as cutters.

For those interested in exactly how much the removal of KU takes off and how that impacts sharpness, i'm sure shinichi could tell us.

So those who like the KU look, the knife will be a great cutter because of his understanding of angles and thickness. If you like a polished look and it's a question of cost, go for what you ultimately want even at higher cost, because knives are an investment over years and you can build your collection over time. If you want a thinner blade overall, and don't have a strong preference for KU, go for polished. I would definitely go for the pro line, as that's his highest quality of craftsmanship.

 

[Jkts]

How much thinner will you go and what do you mean by sicker grind? I am also contemplating asking him to do for me one slightly thinner 210. I have pro 240 and it is perhaps just a bit too thick for my taste...

I'll be very interested in how it cuts- I've asked him to make thinner (and thicker) knives on rare occasion.

 

[Jkts]

Thinking further on this, for the knife makers out there, would you hammer down (flattten) the metal to get it to the thickness you want, which would impact starting thickness whether or not you plan to remove the KU?

 

[Marcelo Amaral]

1000cuts, i will open a new thread so we can keep talking about Takedas.

 

[Krassi]

WOOOWW! @Jkts
and those are only Watanabes! is his car sponsored by Jkts? )) Very awesome collection.. i guess you know why you got them

 

[Jkts]

How rare is it to have a master smith that we can communicate directly with, and be able to order and receive a custom made knife within our specs in a relatively short period of time (4-8 weeks rather than 6-24 months)?

 

[bkultra]

How rare is it to have a master smith that we can communicate directly with, and be able to order and receive a custom made knife within our specs in a relatively short period of time (4-8 weeks rather than 6-24 months)?

Rare... Custom orders from a master smith is normally years not weeks. Now if you want a MS knife fast you can buy a ready made one from places like the BST, EE, or direct from Murray Carter

Edit: Sorry reading your post I was assuming you were speaking of American Bladesmith Society Master Smiths. I now see you meant a more general form of master smith.

 

[aboynamedsuita]

I would definitely go for the pro line, as that's his highest quality of craftsmanship.

All of mine are customs from the Professional line, but the exception is the recent yanagi i got from the Special line. I asked nutmeg and was advised in another thread that the Specials are pretty much the unique one of a kind pieces he may make from time to time; I also asked Shinichi if there was a difference in craftsmanship between Special and Professional, and he advised that the quality is essentially the same

 

[Krassi]

if its a japanese master smith.. ist unique! i get a mail the next day and he is so progressive and open for every Idea, high tech and he works with the same attitude that i do .. nothings impossible just ask.
Also the japanese shokunin Attitude that you should never stop to advance and optimize is awesome with shinichi! i like him a lot!

Thats why i would only get new knifes from watanabe from japan or from xerxes in germany.. the rest is boring, overprized or suboptimal for me.

Seeya, daniel

 

[dwalker]

I have my first direct from the source Watanabe being made right now (300 pro suji). Communication was clear and easy. It was great to be able to correspond directly with him. I know I will be getting more in the future.

 

[Jkts]

I asked Shinichi regarding the thinness and kurouchi question. He replied that it is difficult to control the thickness in hammering and that the kurouchi can vary in its thickness. If a person wants a very thin blade it should be polished. To get really thin, it starts with thinness of the stock being used.


I wonder if that means one would trade off durability, strength and longevity for a laser. For a home cook like myself, it wouldn't matter, but for someone who needs to sharpen all the time... for you sushi chefs out there, do your lasers have a limited life span?

 

[paulraphael]

I wonder if that means one would trade off durability, strength and longevity for a laser. For a home cook like myself, it wouldn't matter, but for someone who needs to sharpen all the time... for you sushi chefs out there, do your lasers have a limited life span?

A friend of mine who cooked professionally with a laser, sharpening it nightly, said he replaced it every year or two. I don't think he waited until it had no life left or turned all the way to a suji; he'd give it to guys who worked below him. I also don't know if he got much more life out of thicker knives.

 

[Jkts]

A friend of mine who cooked professionally with a laser, sharpening it nightly, said he replaced it every year or two. I don't think he waited until it had no life left or turned all the way to a suji; he'd give it to guys who worked below him. I also don't know if he got much more life out of thicker knives.

One or two years? would that discourage fancy finishes and exotic handles...


On an abstract level, it also suggests very different realities...

The chef (the artist) uses the knife (the best affordable medium or tool) to create food (the art) for the diner (the customer or audience)

Vs the knife collector (the customer or collector of art) who buys a knife (the art) with a beautiful finish and handle from the smith (the artist) to be appreciated by self and others (audience)

Vs the home cook (producer) who buys a very good knife (the tool) from the smith (craftsman or producer) to create food (product) for themself and family (consumers)

Or to merge all three- an artist using art made by another artist to create art for an art aficionado

Is this too far into the deep end? 😜

 

[JBroida]

A friend of mine who cooked professionally with a laser, sharpening it nightly, said he replaced it every year or two. I don't think he waited until it had no life left or turned all the way to a suji; he'd give it to guys who worked below him. I also don't know if he got much more life out of thicker knives.

This is a clear case of over-sharpening.... these knives can last for much longer

 

[aaamax]

On an abstract level, it also suggests very different realities...

The chef (the artist) uses the knife (the best affordable medium or tool) to create food (the art) for the diner (the customer or audience)

Vs the knife collector (the customer or collector of art) who buys a knife (the art) with a beautiful finish and handle from the smith (the artist) to be appreciated by self and others (audience)

Vs the home cook (producer) who buys a very good knife (the tool) from the smith (craftsman or producer) to create food (product) for themself and family (consumers)

Or to merge all three- an artist using art made by another artist to create art for an art aficionado

Is this too far into the deep end? 😜

This quote is worthy of dead-thread revival!
Plus, I too agree Sin is the man and we are all lucky that his wares are still affordable without having had any crazy ups and downs quality wise as so many other smiths have over the years.

 

[Jkts]

At the time I was struck by how this site has collectors and users - they both love but have very different relationships to knives.

 

[Customfan]

One or two years? would that discourage fancy finishes and exotic handles...


On an abstract level, it also suggests very different realities...

The chef (the artist) uses the knife (the best affordable medium or tool) to create food (the art) for the diner (the customer or audience)

Vs the knife collector (the customer or collector of art) who buys a knife (the art) with a beautiful finish and handle from the smith (the artist) to be appreciated by self and others (audience)

Vs the home cook (producer) who buys a very good knife (the tool) from the smith (craftsman or producer) to create food (product) for themself and family (consumers)

Or to merge all three- an artist using art made by another artist to create art for an art aficionado

Is this too far into the deep end? 😜

Nope, I think its worth the reflection... i've also seen that as we'll even though I sometimes see some transitioning.

I have also seen a certain amount of correlation between rarity (read as lack of availability at that moment) and the perception (we'll deserved in most cases) of performance. There are some good examples out there. Someone already mentioned this to some degree.

All fantastic suggestions, Watanabe is a solid reference, i would like to add Konoske HD's, honyakis and other knives that I find to also be Supperb. I think Mizuno (various) is also worth mentioning more or less in the same camp as Watanabe. So many good options out there.... i could go on and on, I won't. :wink:

 

[LifeByA1000Cuts]

I think home cooks who do it more out of an artistic/learning drive than just as a necessary corollary to consumption will be found plenty here

And the purebred collector (somebody going at it with a philosophy like a nihonto fan: You don't own it and don't dare damaging it!) seems to be rare here compared to the "Great knife, make it work and when's dinner?" crowd


"$200 knife and YOU'RE SCRATCHING THE BEVEL?!" -"Yeah, $200 would be wasted if you didn't make it perform like $200, no?"

 

[Customfan]

I believe a survey would be useful to find out how many on each camp we have.... taking Jkts classification or Chef, home and collector. My only concern is what happens with people that are in two camps...

 

[LifeByA1000Cuts]

...and "combined camps" - eg you could have a home chef who uses $200 knives but also collects $2000 ones he does not use. Or a pro chef that also home cooks simple meals to feed himself/his kin using expensive knives because of less maintenance, and collects inexpensive, thematically linked knives that he does not use in either capacity...

 

[Jovidah]

I think home cooks who do it more out of an artistic/learning drive than just as a necessary corollary to consumption will be found plenty here

And the purebred collector (somebody going at it with a philosophy like a nihonto fan: You don't own it and don't dare damaging it!) seems to be rare here compared to the "Great knife, make it work and when's dinner?" crowd


"$200 knife and YOU'RE SCRATCHING THE BEVEL?!" -"Yeah, $200 would be wasted if you didn't make it perform like $200, no?"

Yeah I never understood the whole 'collecting of tools without using them'. Apparently most expensive outdoor & folding knives are only used for decoration. Such a complete waste if you ask me... tools are meant to be used! How can you truly appreciate a tool if you're not using it.

 

[Noodle Soup]

Kind of depends on if you see them as investments or not. Other than a few elite makers like Loveless and Moran, used custom knives never increase in value like mint ones do. Lots of people just can't stand the thought of their prefect custom going down in value.

 

[DaveInMesa]

Yeah I never understood the whole 'collecting of tools without using them'. Apparently most expensive outdoor & folding knives are only used for decoration. Such a complete waste if you ask me... tools are meant to be used! How can you truly appreciate a tool if you're not using it.

At a certain price point, which varies from person to person, they cease to become tools, and become art. Once they reach that point, it makes sense not to use them. Whether or not it makes sense to LET them reach that point is the real question. If you've got the disposable income, I say 'why not?' That's kind of the point of working hard enough to have disposable income.

 

[richard]

I believe you mean discretionary income

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disposable_and_discretionary_income

 

[joyless]

Can anyone compare Watanabe 180mm kasumi gyuto to Toyama gyutos?
I have 240mm Toyama, which is pure magic and my favourite knive, but I'd like to get something shorter and in stainless clad. Watanabe seemed like no-brainer, but after short conversation with Shinichi I'm not 100% sure if it's what I'm looking for. For starters its only 45mm wide, which seems pretty narrow (Toyama 240mm is 56mm wide)..

 

[dwalker]

I could be off base a little as I do not own any 180 gyutos, but 45mm is probably considered tall for the length. For comparison, my 210 Kono Fuji is 45.4mm at the heel.

 

[dwalker]

Here is my 240 Toyama with my 210 Kono for comparison.

 

[Jovidah]

Yeah 45 mm is actually pretty generous for a 180. I've seen plenty of 210's that were only 44 or even 43 mm.
If I'm not mistaken Watanabe was Toyama's apprentice or something like that, and the knives tend to be somewhat similar.

 

[bkultra]

If I'm not mistaken Watanabe was Toyama's apprentice or something like that, and the knives tend to be somewhat similar.

Shinichi's father trained Toyama and later Toyama trained Shinichi.