Western makers vs. established japanese smiths

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No worries! I think maybe possibly... You would enjoy the german forum, they pick things apart german style :D
It can be read with translator. Kochmalscharf.freeforums.net
 
Also in case Stockholm is not too far for you, cleancut is having a gathering with tanaka forging demo, nov 20. I will come and bring whatever knives I have in progress.
 
I haven't purchased any custom knives yet but I do have experience with buying custom bicycle frames. I guess the analagous situation would be small production Italian racing frames relative to U.S. custom builders, at least back in the day of Columbus and Reynolds steel frames. Even if you hadn't ridden or owned a large number of other bikes so you had a very clear idea of what you wanted a good American builder would take a large number of measurements of his customer, question what changes they wanted from their current bike and the exact application, and go out on rides with the customer to observe them on the bike. Of course, if you commissioned a frame from a builder some distance away you either had to incur travel costs or try to substitute photos and e-mails. If I could afford it and if I had owned quite a few more Japanese knives I might consider buying a custom knife but the idea of buying a custom bike frame, a suit, a pair of shoes or an instrument without direct, in person, contact with the maker is somewhat off putting to me. To the best of my knowledge I don't live near any well-regarded knife makers and, for me, that is a major obstacle.
 
I think custom knives are easier than custom bike frames. Cost is different and there are a lot more going on with bikes plus I assume you race at least in theory when you buy custom bike frames. With knives, there is only so much a maker can do when it comes to performance and even though a knife could be tailored to an individual, the performance benefit would be marginal at best. You also have to consider that a knife if used a lot changes its dimensions through its life.

Good idea though to try many knives before ordering a custom, too many of us think they know what they want before having enough experience for this to be true.
 
LostHighway said:
FWIW I don't think a bicycle frame builder equivalent of Chelsea Miller knives would have survived for long.
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But the bike would look so rustic :confused:. I will admit I've seen a couple that looked ok. I'd be curious about the grinds on a few. But they definitely seem way more about marketing than sound performance.
 
without having purchased anything custom from a western maker, i think the amount/time of labor put into making has to be the main defining factor. I'm guessing the cost of living is not that crazy much higher in the west, compared to Japan, if you know where i am going with that.
But you hear stories about Japanese smiths forging a ridicules amount of blades pr day, and not necessarily being involved in much more of the process of the finished product. Then you compare it to stories of western makers struggling to keep up with demand, when they have to make a great product, to keep up with the standard they have set.
It makes you think that there are a huge difference in efficiency with the way things are done.
I'm not trying to slam western makers, i actually have an idea in my head that most decent makers put a lot of work into a piece. Nor am i trying to paint a picture that i assume its super easy to get by as a Japanese "style" smith.

I would personally be much more likely to buy something from a western maker if they left some blades as cost efficient as can be: cut out the gluing process with cheap pre-made "hammer on"/wa handles, leave the 80-200grit grind marks from the not ocd-level grinding on, leave the spine and choil as is, actually basically just give me a well heat treated not too thick hunk of steel, and leave me to do the rest :p
 
I wish I could, but the most part of the time spent is on the coarsest grit, you're right about inefficient/slow. But what (i think many of us westerners) do is doing our absolutely best. Setting the "tolerances" so tight means every blade takes alot more time to dial in, in comparison with slamming in one bevel at a angle. I wouldnt be surprised the japanese take 5-10 min to grind a iron clad blade. When I make one clad the initial grinding is fast, but when it comes to the point I start reaching really thin on the edge and the geometry say 20 mm up, along with taper, that's where they start to go bendy with almost every pass... You get the picture. With monosteel the process of finish grinding is just slower because everything is very very hard steel.. If I have put in say 6 hours on a knife, I kindof feel it deserves a half or hour worth of finishing work. And then at the end of the week, if I got three knives done, they need to cover the income needed for running the business a week. Overhead/reality is also there. Don't know if this helps to understand, at the end of the day it is supply/demand.
 
LostHighway said:
FWIW I don't think a bicycle frame builder equivalent of Chelsea Miller knives would have survived for long.
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Are you kidding? With the right advertisement she could sell even more bike frames than knives. It's all in the presentation.
 
Eloh said:
Looking at it the other way round is more helpful, if shiro kamo or shigeki Tanaka can offer hand made full size blades for ~$100 you can be sure that there's not a lot of working hours in them ;)


I'm sure there are western makers who would be able to do similar, but

1. There is not a big market for western made blades with terrible f&f. ;)

2. Most western makers became knife makers due to a passion for cool knives not as merely a job.



Also you can get a xerxes Primus for the same price as a Suisin Inox Honyaki.

There simply aren't any western makers who specialize in producing decent to good cutting knives in high numbers for as cheap as possible.
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I have walked through many home kitchens and trust me, people don't really care where their knives come from.

I don't know who xerxes Primus is and I can't understand the funny language on his website. I'm also too lazy to click on the translate button.

I don't know the quality of his knives, but if it performs less favorable to the Inox Honyaki, then it only further proves my point. This is only theoretical since I have not tested either blade.
 
RDalman said:
I wish I could, but the most part of the time spent is on the coarsest grit, you're right about inefficient/slow. But what (i think many of us westerners) do is doing our absolutely best. Setting the "tolerances" so tight means every blade takes alot more time to dial in, in comparison with slamming in one bevel at a angle. I wouldnt be surprised the japanese take 5-10 min to grind a iron clad blade. When I make one clad the initial grinding is fast, but when it comes to the point I start reaching really thin on the edge and the geometry say 20 mm up, along with taper, that's where they start to go bendy with almost every pass... You get the picture. With monosteel the process of finish grinding is just slower because everything is very very hard steel.. If I have put in say 6 hours on a knife, I kindof feel it deserves a half or hour worth of finishing work. And then at the end of the week, if I got three knives done, they need to cover the income needed for running the business a week. Overhead/reality is also there. Don't know if this helps to understand, at the end of the day it is supply/demand.
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I understand where you are coming from. All people would have to say is "I'm American and I deserve more for my efforts because I have bills to pay."

Case in point, I was watching an interview where a farmer attempted to hire American workers. When he explained what the job was picking produce and how much it pays, he stated more than a few people said "I'm not doing THAT kind of work for $18/hour".

It wasn't the job that was the problem. It was the idea that if I'm going to do back breaking labor, I expect to be compensated for it.

They did not see the irony that if they had the skills for better employment then they would not be looking for a job as a fruit picker in the first place.

A plot by the Illuminati to keep Americans fat and lazy for the eventual harvest. Heard it on Alex Jones.
 
I think it has a lot to do with the basic culture surrounding the knife makers themselves- japan has a terrifically longer history activating the community to see those ends, and have effectively been able to create a commodity knife economy; while by and large, western makers are almost strictly custom. That alone says it all.

Besides Carter* and Kramer*, there aren’t many ‘makers’ doing large batch knives at commodity level (*not to say they are selling at commodity prices*), and as such own the market and demand the prices. Were someone good to come along and produce good to great knives at a more affordable price to disrupt their market, prices would surely be scrutinized if a large enough dent was made. Of course this would also mean you’d see the same range of knives, from amazing to terrible.

To hammer the culture bit home even more, the only people ordering these custom western knives are people in the know, and generally have more disposable income & discerning taste than the average person in the strongest economy in the world. After all, business success is knowing what the market will bear, and generally riding that threshold. Meanwhile in Japan, in a culture far more obsessed with cuisine coupled with a multigenerational understanding of knives, there’s a market & demand for price points that are more sober than the average custom western market.

So the culture essentially looks like this imo- western makers are niche, almost cult, play well to their audience, and can demand those prices. Japanese makers have generations under their belt and have developed a considerably broader spectrum with price points for all end users.

(I’m sure there are 35 points of nuance that can picked and expanded upon from this angle alone)
 
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Gregmega said:
Besides Carter* and Kramer*, there aren’t many ‘makers’ doing large batch knives at commodity level (*not to say they are selling at commodity prices*), and as such own the market and demand the prices. Were someone good to come along and produce good to great knives at a more affordable price to disrupt their market, prices would surely be scrutinized if a large enough dent was made. Of course this would also mean you’d see the same range of knives, from amazing to terrible.
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I think a strange quirk of the way markets work is that if someone actually did this, people would assume it wasn't as good because the price was a lot lower and it would end up selling less/being less desirable to a lot of people. Places like this forum would pick up on the higher bang-to-buck ratio and it would be popular here, but we aren't a big market and are unrepresentative of 'most people'.
 
There are plenty of hunting, utlity and EDC knives that are what you would call affordable, but this is also factory production. Japan has it's own factory produced knives too but I don't want to change the nature of this thread.

Even if say all Devin Thomas did was forge knives all day, then say someone else came in, took that box, and did all of the grind work, then another guy comes in and does all of the sharpening and polishing, then another final person did the handle work , the knife still would be more expensive in comparison. $200 alone for said chef's knife would go to cover health care and risk insurance.

In fact, the very reason why American makers have to be involved in every aspect of the knife making process from handle to tip is because it would cost too much to hire help which would also raise the price of the knife.
 
I don't really think American labour is that expensive. Physical trades are not that highly paid compared to a lot of western countries. The difference between the US and Japan is not huge either, cost of living in Japan feels a little higher in my experience. Unless you compare it to somewhere like San Francisco of course.
 
It's a function of my search history but my Instagram feed is filled with custom knife maker. Everyone takes great pictures and chooses the right filter these days and it makes me wonder if it makes more sense for custom makers to focus more on visual than performance in order to sell a knife. The need to standout and hashtag also leads to a lot of ******** such as rehandling a knife and calling it a "custom".
 
In fact, the very reason why American makers have to be involved in every aspect of the knife making process from handle to tip is because it would cost too much to hire help which would also raise the price of the knife.

Is true over here in sweden too. Just safety standards would stop me from getting anyone else involved.
 
Viggetorr said:
Generally on this forum, and in the community in particular, it seems to me that western makers inspired by japanese knives seem to fetch a lot higher prices per knife than most of the established japanese smiths charge (excepting the shig/kato craze). Why is that? Do knives by makers such as Halcyon Forge, Comet, Dalman, Hazenberg and so on (generally) outperform mid-priced japanese makers such as Tanaka, Kurosaki, the Gesshin lines Wakui and so on? Or is the price setting more of a supply/demand kind of thing which make these western makers more desirable for western knife knuts and collectors?

Please discuss!
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I guess its simply easier to buy japanese knives. there are more of them. usually in stock at several places. so they are not as "exclusive".
Personally I'm happy with japanese stuff. you can get almost whatever you want and also put on whatever handle you like.
 
Any one of these American makers could easily find a place to do production to their specs, slap their name on it, and call it ‘Devin Thomas made’ if they chose to do so, and at a price point that’s more affordable. It’s just not a market worth entertaining as there’s no vacuum to fill. As such it’s easier to do your own custom style, and make a decent wage as a craftsmen, without the market telling you what & how to produce. And again, the Japanese market has been supporting their productions for generations, while westerners have become happy with anything that’s sharp ootb and doesn’t rust, cause we ain’t got time for that sh**. So in that way the Japanese have fostered a culture that more closely resembles a fully fleshed out & varied market. Here it’s either the stainless banger your grandmother used, or a bespoke piece of art. Beyond that, the last time westerners forged anything of value was pre & post war, or essentially pre stainless. Unless the culture changes dramatically towards carbon, we likely won’t see a change in the demand for more price points from western makers anytime soon.

I’m sure Broida could load our ears up with the drama of selling carbon to normies. [emoji23]
 
wow this is a good thread. I have well over 100 kitchen knives, german, pakistan, south america, england the US, china and japan. the construction is depending on who is making them and what he is making them from. i have seen guys that mix their own steel and use even meteorite remains. the world is for demand and offer if I can get over 5,000 for a knife let's celebrate this. I also seen a japanese guy make a knive in close to one hour. the guy has been making knives for more than 50 years and he is an artist. the price difference I don't understand why but see shops in the US with dust collectors, temperature setting, fire compliance walls and equipment, as clean as a house plus other things. seen shops in other parts and they lack most of these things. maybe this influences. any way the maker is an artist and if they do an auction their price goes thru the roof. I seen some guys that do a raffle so that the normal person can get or receive on of those knives.
 
RDalman said:
I wouldnt be surprised the japanese take 5-10 min to grind a iron clad blade. When I make one clad the initial grinding is fast, but when it comes to the point I start reaching really thin on the edge and the geometry say 20 mm up, along with taper, that's where they start to go bendy with almost every pass... You get the picture. With monosteel the process of finish grinding is just slower because everything is very very hard steel.. If I have put in say 6 hours on a knife,
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Here’s your answer. Time and quantity.

Now a master craftsman can work fast but that’s 10-15+ years of experience. For you to assume it takes 5 minutes to grind a blade obviously shows western makers have no idea of the Japanese grinding process, and assume forging is the only craft involved. There are at least 10-15 steps involved in grinding most blades. It all depends on the level of the blade and how it needs to be finished. Keep in mind I know more of the double bevel process and not of the single bevel.

It also has to do with Japanese culture. They tend to focus on one craft and only do that craft until they hopefully can one day master it. Talk to any old craftsman and they’ll say the moment you think you’ve mastered it and have no more questions is the day you should retire.

This is why in Japan it’s done in clustering. A forger forgers. A sharpener sharpens. A handle maker makes handles. Each one of those is a craft in itself. For one to try and master all those crafts would take you 15-20 years.

Again, I’m more knowledgeable in the grinding process of double bevel blades. Going back to time... The tools used, mostly belt grinders, by western makers are vastly slower than those by Japanese grinders, huge water wheels. I would say a master grinder with an apprentice can at least fully grind 500 mid to high level knives a month.

Spending 6 hours on ONE knife is where you’re costs come from. Labor time and quantity of blades.
 
lol I usually spend about 10-15h on each of my handles. but then i dont use any machinery except a cordless drill. I'm in no hurry though. its knife therapy :)
 
have you seen how they shape wa handles ^^? takes no time at all
 
yes i have seen it. and several others similar. they can do oval, round, octagon etc etc. all in 10 seconds. I work with files/rasps/needle files/sandpaper/carving knives/japanese saws. and i dont do wa handles.
 
osakajoe said:
Here’s your answer. Time and quantity.

Now a master craftsman can work fast but that’s 10-15+ years of experience. For you to assume it takes 5 minutes to grind a blade obviously shows western makers have no idea of the Japanese grinding process, and assume forging is the only craft involved. There are at least 10-15 steps involved in grinding most blades. It all depends on the level of the blade and how it needs to be finished. Keep in mind I know more of the double bevel process and not of the single bevel.

It also has to do with Japanese culture. They tend to focus on one craft and only do that craft until they hopefully can one day master it. Talk to any old craftsman and they’ll say the moment you think you’ve mastered it and have no more questions is the day you should retire.

This is why in Japan it’s done in clustering. A forger forgers. A sharpener sharpens. A handle maker makes handles. Each one of those is a craft in itself. For one to try and master all those crafts would take you 15-20 years.

Again, I’m more knowledgeable in the grinding process of double bevel blades. Going back to time... The tools used, mostly belt grinders, by western makers are vastly slower than those by Japanese grinders, huge water wheels. I would say a master grinder with an apprentice can at least fully grind 500 mid to high level knives a month.

Spending 6 hours on ONE knife is where you’re costs come from. Labor time and quantity of blades.
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500 mid to high level knives per month come to about three per hour with a 40 hour week. I do think I understand from where you're coming and I don't mean to slight or value in any way. For me, I don't necessarily see a problem spending six hours on a blade if the outgoing product meets my goals, and makes the customer happy.

I was very disappointed in my first japanese knife. It was a double bevel wa gyuto that was ground and finished in such a way it simply cut terribly. It took many hours at home with the stones to get it to "acceptable" level. It's where I'm coming from. It was not exorbitantly priced, but it wasnt a great experience either. I think and am happy to see people say, that western and japanese makers can coexist and fill different needs for the chefs and geeks.
 
I didn’t say anywhere that Japanese knives are better than other knives. Not taking anything away from what you and others do. I live in Osaka and work in the knife industry. Also been apprenticing with a grinder for almost 2 years now.

I was just giving my insight on how things are done here compared with western makers I have met and talked to. As well as stating why I think the prices are different.

Also, anyone who thinks because it’s a Japanese Knife it’s superior to all others is ridiculous. There are way more crap Japanese knives than good quality. I would easily take a she Han knife over a majority of those knives.
 
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RDalman said:
Is true over here in sweden too. Just safety standards would stop me from getting anyone else involved.
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I know "Western" on this forum can be code word for American, but trust me Europe is also included as part of the Western group. Britain's exchange rate alone can be a nightmare. Those VAT taxes are also brutal.
 
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