Western rehandle with all hand tools?

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spaceconvoy

spaceconvoy

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Similar HumbleHomeCook's recent thread, I'd like to rehandle two western knives without a drill press (has it become trendy for apartment dwellers to attempt difficult projects? is this late-stage-pandemic culture?)

I'm planning to epoxy the scales on without pins, and I have a small vise, rasps, and files to do the shaping. The main issue I can see is removing the original scales - every tutorial I've seen uses a drill press to remove the pins. Any advice?
 
Man, I can't remember for sure but I feel like OUTDOORS55 and Gough Customs on You Tube both had videos on using nothing but hand tools. I think in both cases it was a full knife (outdoors) build but contained within is the handle.

Drilling some holes in the tang so the epoxy flows through it might be a good idea.
 
HumbleHomeCook said:
Man, I can't remember for sure but I feel like OUTDOORS55 and Gough Customs on You Tube both had videos on using nothing but hand tools. I think in both cases it was a full knife (outdoors) build but contained within is the handle.

Drilling some holes in the tang so the epoxy flows through it might be a good idea.
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I was actually planning on reusing the original pins, cutting them short so they protrude a few mm from the tang, dremeling out small pockets on the inside of the scales, and flooding the whole thing with epoxy. Thanks for the recs, I'll check them out.
 
I should have noted that a centering punch would make the hand drilling of the pins easier. In the case of salvaging pins if they're not Corby bolts, you might just be able to pry them off under the handle scale, but I've had mixed results with this.
 
I used to remove old scales using a dremel tool to cut through them in several places between the pins then prying them off. It is truly much easier to drill through the pins, which you could do, if you put a score mark in the pin with a center punch, then use a high speed bit.

That said, western handles are pretty tricky. I am not a professional, but the westerns I have done presented more challenge, and greater potential for failure than just about any wa. Relying on just epoxy rather than also using pins, or even better, Corby bolts, definitely weakens the durability quite a bit. You absolutely need to prep the tang metal to get it nice and clean, and pay attention to the grain of the wood, or use well stabilized scales. Gentle warping would actually be strong enough to pull away from the epoxy.
 
birdsfan said:
I used to remove old scales using a dremel tool to cut through them in several places between the pins then prying them off. It is truly much easier to drill through the pins, which you could do, if you put a score mark in the pin with a center punch, then use a high speed bit.

That said, western handles are pretty tricky. I am not a professional, but the westerns I have done presented more challenge, and greater potential for failure than just about any wa. Relying on just epoxy rather than also using pins, or even better, Corby bolts, definitely weakens the durability quite a bit. You absolutely need to prep the tang metal to get it nice and clean, and pay attention to the grain of the wood, or use well stabilized scales. Gentle warping would actually be strong enough to pull away from the epoxy.
Click to expand...

That's good advice, the scales are stabilized redwood burl from Burl Source that I've had for over a decade now 😅 but I know that's no guarantee. It's a calculated risk I'm willing to take because I personally can't stand the sight of pinned handles next to my gorgeous wa's
 
xsmx13 said:
I should have noted that a centering punch would make the hand drilling of the pins easier. In the case of salvaging pins if they're not Corby bolts, you might just be able to pry them off under the handle scale, but I've had mixed results with this.
Click to expand...
Is there a typical style of pin used on Japanese-made western knives? One is factory mass produced in Seki (Misono UX-10) and the other is a small dentoukougeishi (Goko Kogetsu). Guess there's no way to know beforehand
 
First time I did this I bought a small diamond file because the blank was already fully hardened. 100% recommend. It allowed me to properly file the tang and make everything flush as well as the pins (although they were small brass rods I got from a model train hobby store). Also the shinto rasps are really good for shaping wood. It's all very doable. Last suggestion, make sure you finish the end of the scales 'where the ferul might be' before mounting, otherwise it will be very difficult to finish without marking the blade.

But as mentioned above - I would epoxy with the pins in. In the glue up is where you'll find if your holes are straight enough. If you glue and then try and put pins in that don't fit you've got no chance of fixing it.
 
So (surprise, surprise!) I've done this a few times too. Though NB - I'm not all that experienced with full-tang / western handles, so would certainly defer to other people's wisdom. @birdsfan has already replied I see, and I'm sure there'll be other experts too.

Having said all that, let's get to the original q... you're not planning on saving the scales I assume? In which case - smash them up with a hammer. Break the wood up quite well, but ideally while doing this try not to touch the pins too much. You can also use the vice to break up the wood too. Do this until you can kinda pull it off the tang in bits.

Then you're left with the knife itself, no scales, and three pins still in it. If they're rivets / corby bolts (and you haven't beaten them up too much) then they're quite easy to remove. If they're pins - more difficult, especially if deformed, pliers might get you somewhere, but heavy duty wire or bolt cutters is likely what you want. If you had a good version of those pliers that has a wire cutter in it - that'd be ideal.

Sounds like hard work, but actually perfectly doable in about 5 mins - I did this on a bread knife last week without a drill press.

Though if you are hoping to save the scales then I'd have no idea!
 
I'm also going to go against the grain* here and say that if you don't want pins then don't bother - epoxy is plenty strong enough to hold scales on in use. Just make sure the bond's good. Rough up both the wood, and the metal with some kind of rasp as much as possible.

Epoxy is very strong. You can see this when trying to remove wa handles that have been epoxied - the mallet method using shock force just doesn't work. And that's a far higher application of force to a smaller area than you'll ever encounter when cutting things with a knife. What does break epoxy bonds though is shear force - twisting, warping, that kind of thing. If you want to remove an epoxied handle you don't break the bond by hitting it - you do it by flexing it repeatedly with rapid temperature changes.

So the point my Eagles-supporting friend made above is important. If the wood warps and moves over time - that'll break the bond. Using it normally as a knife won't.

And even if it did; the worst thing that'd happen is ten years down the line you might need to apply a bit more epoxy. It's not going to suddenly break all at once and the blade jump up and stab you in the eye as you're trimming the broccolini of an evening...

I shouldn't have thought.


* Ho ho. Classic woodworker's joke for you there.
 
Both are black pakka wood, so definitely not trying to save them. I'm a cautious person and wouldn't have thought to use such brutality, so that's a good suggestion. Seems maybe the pakka would be more resistant to blunt force trauma given all the plastic, but I like the idea of using the vise with maybe a metal wedge to split it up.

I'm actually hoping the pins don't come out easily, would rather grind them down and use them like hidden "pins" to add shear strength. Not exactly pins because I'm not planning to make the hole fit tight, since I don't have the precision required for that I'll just roughly dremel a pocket for them. I too believe in the power of epoxy, especially when the contact surface is complex and three dimensional.
 
spaceconvoy said:
Both are black pakka wood, so definitely not trying to save them. I'm a cautious person and wouldn't have thought to use such brutality, so that's a good suggestion. Seems maybe the pakka would be more resistant to blunt force trauma given all the plastic, but I like the idea of using the vise with maybe a metal wedge to split it up.

I'm actually hoping the pins don't come out easily, would rather grind them down and use them like hidden "pins" to add shear strength. Not exactly pins because I'm not planning to make the hole fit tight, since I don't have the precision required for that I'll just roughly dremel a pocket for them. I too believe in the power of epoxy, especially when the contact surface is complex and three dimensional.
Click to expand...

Oh sorry, I hadn't read your second post properly... I think you've hit the nail on the head* - that sounds like a very good solution. I've done a couple of scaled (but not properly pinned) handles 'flooded' with epoxy like that before, and they've worked a charm. You can also obviously bash the pins down a bit, kinda like peening them, if you don't want to dremel too much.

And yep - a vice is a more controlled way than hammering to break the original scales, and works very well. I just like hammering stuff sometimes ;).


* They love this stuff over on the Carpentry Forums I assure you!
 
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spaceconvoy said:
I'm actually hoping the pins don't come out easily, would rather grind them down and use them like hidden "pins" to add shear strength. Not exactly pins because I'm not planning to make the hole fit tight, since I don't have the precision required for that I'll just roughly dremel a pocket for them.
Click to expand...
Pins allow to fix the position of the scales. Clamp one scale to the tang. Then drill two holes. This only needs a drill and pins that fit the original drilling.
 
Are they rivets (big heads) or pins? I hate drilling out the rivets most places use; I just belt sand the heads off and knock out with a hammer and punch. You could use a file or dremel bit to do that. I have used chisels hammered between the scale and tang as well, but that may depend on the pins/rivets used.
 
spaceconvoy said:
Similar HumbleHomeCook's recent thread, I'd like to rehandle two western knives without a drill press (has it become trendy for apartment dwellers to attempt difficult projects? is this late-stage-pandemic culture?)

I'm planning to epoxy the scales on without pins, and I have a small vise, rasps, and files to do the shaping. The main issue I can see is removing the original scales - every tutorial I've seen uses a drill press to remove the pins. Any advice?
Click to expand...

just file the pin heads off?

i would suggest you go with pins. or the scales will come flying the first time you drop the knife.
you can do hidden pins too.
 
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