What are the differences between these knives? B2 240mm knives

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Elliot said:
The FT is CONSIDERABLY thinner and a lovely knife in its right.
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Not to mention the Weight...those FT are like 145-155g with a ebony handle or something crazy. The FT comes in various steels, so I would hesitate to call it "chippy" with a blanket statement, but it has to be considered "delicate" in some regards given its extreme lightness. There just isnt that much body to support the blade (especially right behind the edge), if you have in mind any kind serious hard work / 'abuse' etc. (being relative). As Jon alluded to above, something like Wat or TOyama can be modified and beefed up (by sharpening) since there is alot more meat on the bones to take on that kind of work. Toyama/Wat are closer to 210-220g in 240 and will run both taller and longer than Konosuke (Sakai, etc).


(somebody pls correct these numbers if they are off slightly)
 
There’s been speculation about the wat/Toyama thing for like a year but nothing conclusive IMO. I often joke about it but I don’t really know what to believe.
Before the rumor started I thought maybe Watanabe steel was harder. Maybe I was incorrect.
What I’m wondering is why newer wats and Toyamas seem much lighter than older ones? I see 200-210gram 240mm gyutos now. My first Toyama 5 years ago was 253grams.
 
I know people tend to get a little sensitive, but I chose words like "believe" and hedged with "many" for this exact reason. In the context of seeking differences between the knives listed and choosing words as I did, I don't see any issue with passing it on for the OP to consider. It's a piece of the puzzle.

Of course it's not proven. That being said, enough smoke on the topic to make one question if there's fire? In my opinion, yes.
 
Regardless of who makes Toyama and Watanabe they seem to be made to a very similar profile, grind and construction. I believe many will agree that one can safely be substituted for the other without significant drop in performance or function in either direction. I only had experience with 2 of each and decided for myself that I am not experienced or good enough to tell the difference and that I will in the future pick the one that is available or cheaper. In my tiny sample I could detect more difference between iron clad Toyama and stainless clad Toyama and between iron clad Watanabe and stainless clad Watanabe than between Watanabe and Toyama of the same construction. With my example it also seemed that stainless clad from both are overall lighter and thinner than iron clad specimens of either. Only speaking of my examples.
 
Barmoley said:
Regardless of who makes Toyama and Watanabe they seem to be made to a very similar profile, grind and construction. I believe many will agree that one can safely be substituted for the other without significant drop in performance or function in either direction. I only had experience with 2 of each and decided for myself that I am not experienced or good enough to tell the difference and that I will in the future pick the one that is available or cheaper. In my tiny sample I could detect more difference between iron clad Toyama and stainless clad Toyama and between iron clad Watanabe and stainless clad Watanabe than between Watanabe and Toyama of the same construction. With my example it also seemed that stainless clad from both are overall lighter and thinner than iron clad specimens of either. Only speaking of my examples.
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This is really the important takeaway. If they’re made by the same person, buy what’s easier (shipping, price, availability, etc.). If they’re made by a different person, I’m guessing 99+ percent of the people on this forum would be incapable of truly discerning differences. As such, buy what’s easier.
 
Elliot said:
I know people tend to get a little sensitive, but I chose words like "believe" and hedged with "many" for this exact reason. In the context of seeking differences between the knives listed and choosing words as I did, I don't see any issue with passing it on for the OP to consider. It's a piece of the puzzle.

Of course it's not proven. That being said, enough smoke on the topic to make one question if there's fire? In my opinion, yes.
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The problem is that in this thread, it will be "some have suggested", in the next thread, it will be "many believe", in the one after, it will be "I think" and then it will be "it is well known"...
 
And the winner of Toyama vs Watanabe is TFTFTFTFTF.
 
Nemo said:
The problem is that in this thread, it will be "some have suggested", in the next thread, it will be "many believe", in the one after, it will be "I think" and then it will be "it is well known"...
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This is very true and unfortunate, but when someone asks about the differences it would be disingenuous to claim that these knives are vastly different. The very next logical question then becomes, “If they are so similar then is their origin the same?” In the world of information vacuum, rumors and guesses always run wild. No matter how carefully one tries to relay his experience, opinion and reasoning behind it, at some point rumor becomes fact lacking true, solid information. This is not a new phenomena either, internet just makes it easier and speeds up this process. I wish there wasn’t so much secrecy in the Japanese kitchen knife world, even though I understand some of the reasons behind it. As many here like to say, “Buy the smith not the steel” and “Who cares who made it, as long as it is done well”. In the case of these two, buy the one you can get, both are excellent and similar enough to not worry about who made what.
 
Nemo said:
I do wish that people would stop posting guesses as though they were facts.
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People also need to stop repeating the logical fallacy:

I can tell A and B apart, therefore, I can talk defnitively about the UNIQUE origins A and B

An assertion of definitive "non equality" only refutes the hypothesis of "actual equality" or "approximate equality"

ie, it refutes "A=B" and Possible "A≈B"

It does not refute A~B

A~B is read "A is an approximation of B"

Its VERY possible for a single maker to make single knives or complete lines of knives (A and B) where any of the following relations apply:

A=B
A≈B
A~B

Its the perogative of the whole-sale market to determine which come to market. EG

A=B = Sometimes the wholesale market wants to re-sell
A≈B = Sometimes the wholesale market want to white-label
A~B = Sometimes the wholesale market want to own-label

etc.
 
HRC_64 said:
People also need to stop repeating the logical fallacy:

I can tell A and B apart, therefore, I can talk defnitively about the UNIQUE origins A and B

An assertion of definitive "non equality" only refutes the hypothesis of "actual equality" or "approximate equality"

ie, it refutes "A=B" and Possible "A≈B"
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I for one know (and that is why I will assert) that I didn’t understand this at all [emoji16]. But (now I am not asserting) I believe you may have an interesting point here! [emoji6]
 
There is no point in all this guessing. Most if not all of Watanabe Pro knives are made by Toyama. Father of the Watanabe and Toyama were close friends and were in business together. Watanabe is a vendor, not a knife maker. He also has a jewelry online store. He does not even make his famous nakiri (thought that one is not made by Touama, but by someone else). He might be (as a matter of hobby) making some knives himself - like those 125SC blades he offers - those do indeed look like made by someone who does not make knives for a living. He did inherit a large knife making workshop that was aimed at production knives, but that one stands empty.

There even is a forgotten mirror of his webpage were you can see Toyama and his workshop. He removed those photos from his webpage since a long time: http://www13.plala.or.jp/knife/english/pro/index.htm

And also please note - that Watanabe does not present himself as a knifemaker on his English speaking webpage (there are no kitchen knives on his Japanese webpage)


So - could we stop this endless speculations and accept that Watanabe is - as many others - a vendor and not a knifemaker. Hint - notice how fast he answers emails. Would he be able to do that if he would spend 10 hours a day in a workshop?
 
My post above was in no way meant as to deter people from buying goods from Watanabe. He sells good knives and stones. I myself have bought stones from him and would not hesitate to so again. I was only try to clarify some misconceptions.
 
I vote for the Anryu. There is also a good looking KU version with Aogami Super core and a little nicer handle . Definitely ask the seller to pick out a nice example or send pics of a few nicer ones for you to pick. At half the price of most of your other picks you’ll have plenty of cash left over for a decent set of 1 and 6K waterstones (so you can learn to sharpen/fix any chips) I haven’t had any problems with my Anryu chipping (honesuki usually on a plastic board )
 
just buy the Tanaka from James...by far the most knife for the money.

wat/toyoma whatever... I've owned both and preferred the wat... my 240 was 268g and not stainless clad:)
 
Matus said:
There is no point in all this guessing. Most if not all of Watanabe Pro knives are made by Toyama. Father of the Watanabe and Toyama were close friends and were in business together. Watanabe is a vendor, not a knife maker. He also has a jewelry online store. He does not even make his famous nakiri (thought that one is not made by Touama, but by someone else). He might be (as a matter of hobby) making some knives himself - like those 125SC blades he offers - those do indeed look like made by someone who does not make knives for a living. He did inherit a large knife making workshop that was aimed at production knives, but that one stands empty.

There even is a forgotten mirror of his webpage were you can see Toyama and his workshop. He removed those photos from his webpage since a long time: http://www13.plala.or.jp/knife/english/pro/index.htm

And also please note - that Watanabe does not present himself as a knifemaker on his English speaking webpage (there are no kitchen knives on his Japanese webpage)


So - could we stop this endless speculations and accept that Watanabe is - as many others - a vendor and not a knifemaker. Hint - notice how fast he answers emails. Would he be able to do that if he would spend 10 hours a day in a workshop?
Click to expand...
Is being right really that important? Either you don’t care about cultural differences or you’re somehow incapable of understanding. Either way it’s not a good look.

If they wanted their business relationship public they would have made it so and it’s not your job to disclose other people’s relationships through amateur sleuthing.

I know I’m being really rude right now (and trust me, I don’t normally say things like this), but your presumptuousness is also pretty rude. Regardless of whether you’re right or wrong, do you really think your contribution needed to be said and moved the conversation forward?

I will echo the statement to please be careful not to post your speculation as fact. I will also add that even if it is fact that it’s none of your business.
 
Ochazuke said:
Is being right really that important? Either you don’t care about cultural differences or you’re somehow incapable of understanding. Either way it’s not a good look.

If they wanted their business relationship public they would have made it so and it’s not your job to disclose other people’s relationships through amateur sleuthing.

I know I’m being really rude right now (and trust me, I don’t normally say things like this), but your presumptuousness is also pretty rude. Regardless of whether you’re right or wrong, do you really think your contribution needed to be said and moved the conversation forward?

I will echo the statement to please be careful not to post your speculation as fact. I will also add that even if it is fact that it’s none of your business.
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I said the same thing when maxim made a similar statement. Its just best to let laying dogs lie. Especially if the guys behind the knives themselves are tight lipped.
 
Ochazuke said:
Is being right really that important? Either you don’t care about cultural differences or you’re somehow incapable of understanding. Either way it’s not a good look.

If they wanted their business relationship public they would have made it so and it’s not your job to disclose other people’s relationships through amateur sleuthing.

I know I’m being really rude right now (and trust me, I don’t normally say things like this), but your presumptuousness is also pretty rude. Regardless of whether you’re right or wrong, do you really think your contribution needed to be said and moved the conversation forward?

I will echo the statement to please be careful not to post your speculation as fact. I will also add that even if it is fact that it’s none of your business.
Click to expand...
Ofcourse being right is that important. This is a discussion forum we discuss things. If in fact these knives are the same there is no harm to saying so. The only person that can potentially be hurt is Maksim and he already basically said that the knives are the same. Can we stop with the cultural differences this and cultural differences that. If you are selling to the western market than as much as we should respect your culture you should respect ours. It is a two way street. As members of this community we have certain responsibility to provide accurate information to other members. I am all for not posting assumptions as facts. Not posting facts because of some self righteous sense of protecting the maker is wrong.
 
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Matus said:
There is no point in all this guessing. Most if not all of Watanabe Pro knives are made by Toyama. Father of the Watanabe and Toyama were close friends and were in business together. Watanabe is a vendor, not a knife maker. He also has a jewelry online store. He does not even make his famous nakiri (thought that one is not made by Touama, but by someone else). He might be (as a matter of hobby) making some knives himself - like those 125SC blades he offers - those do indeed look like made by someone who does not make knives for a living. He did inherit a large knife making workshop that was aimed at production knives, but that one stands empty.

There even is a forgotten mirror of his webpage were you can see Toyama and his workshop. He removed those photos from his webpage since a long time: http://www13.plala.or.jp/knife/english/pro/index.htm

And also please note - that Watanabe does not present himself as a knifemaker on his English speaking webpage (there are no kitchen knives on his Japanese webpage)


So - could we stop this endless speculations and accept that Watanabe is - as many others - a vendor and not a knifemaker. Hint - notice how fast he answers emails. Would he be able to do that if he would spend 10 hours a day in a workshop?
Click to expand...
Thanks for clearing this up. Do you know who makes the Nakiri, I would like to see if I can get it a bit customized.
 
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