What cuts better than a Denka?

[birdsfan]

I'm genuinely dissapointed this thread wasn't filled with more people saying 'What's better than a denka? Two denkas!' in a thinly veiled attempt to legitimize more knife purchases.

Or in my case.....3 denkas!

 

[birdsfan]

I Have much respect for my Wat/Toyama as well. It is a great cutter and equally sturdy. The TF treatment of the AS is a differentiating factor though. Such a great steel!

 

[birdsfan]

Mert or one of his HVB's is definitely on my list as well. Have been close to scoring one on a couple of occassions, but it was either too short (length), or a tad too heavy

 

[Giovanny Torres]

I don't own a denka but my Yanick and Kippington wp are my best cutters.
I own a TF nashiji petty but I don't think is anything like a denka, so not a fair comparison.

 

[M1k3]

I'm genuinely dissapointed this thread wasn't filled with more people saying 'What's better than a denka? Two denkas!' in a thinly veiled attempt to legitimize more knife purchases.

 

[daveb]

Better than a Denka?

A grapefruit.

Speaking from only one datapoint...

 

[Benuser]

I'm watching this thread. I've never owned one but have definitely been curious.

Assuming this is open to all makers. Although western, it'd be hard to find competition for my 250mm Kamon. The cutting output it amazing, although obviously thinner on the end 1/3 of the blade. Cutting root vegetables with it is a joy.....thick and thin in all the right places.

I'm in the same situation. Curious about what makes people love or dislike them, and being prepared to put a huge amount of money in it, and a lot of effort, once it has arrived. And eventually considering blind powered thinning.

 

[Pie]

Nah. Not in my sparse collection anyways.

Denka to the rescue every time I only want to use one knife.

 

[Greenbriel]

I'm waiting for the end of a looong saga to get my mitts on a 240 Denka with a red lacquer Wa handle. I'll post the whole story if/hopefully when it gets here. Interesting and amazing customer service tale.

The first one I had was a dog. Went through carrots like frozen butter. Also had a flaw in the spine with a bit of white plastic in it. I'm hopeful the next one lives up to the hype.

So until that day, my most used/best cutters are Birgersson, Spåre, Kip, anything Watoyama and Yoshi SKD (dear god I love how that thing cuts). I have multiples of all except the Kip, and they are each as good as the next.

Edit: here's what I'm waiting for (pre-notch cutting and sharpening). Had a choice of (wa) handle and couldn't resist the urushi.

 

[Cliff]

There is something authoritative and toothy about the Denka, and it holds that edge so well. I just got a Sukenari in Hap40. It feels different but has some of the same virtues in terms of edge holding, toothiness, and authority on the board.

ETA - I'm just getting to know it, but it feels solid, shockingly so for how hard it is, like the Denka. I have softer knives that feel more brittle.

 

[DitmasPork]

My denka cuts very well, I'd rank it up in the top 20% of gyutos I have. Solid knife for sure—if prepping for a big supper party, and needing a great cutting knife, it's probably number 9 or 10 in the queue. I love my denka, but have others that cut as well or better, or that I'd rather use.

 

[Loam]

My denka cuts very well, I'd rank it up in the top 20% of gyutos I have. Solid knife for sure—if prepping for a big supper party, and needing a great cutting knife, it's probably number 9 or 10 in the queue. I love my denka, but have others that cut as well or better, or that I'd rather use.

May I ask which are the 8 knives you would reach out for before your denka?

 

[Cliff]

I'll take a stab at an inevitably personal question. I prefer lasers for hard, dense product. For me, that's Shibata, Yoshikane (even if the spine is not so thin), Konosuke HD2 or Fujiyama, or a JNS Tanaka. It's not that they're better cutters than the Denka, but they work better in some situations.

ETA - I forgot Ashi Ginga, my go-to for tough stuff like that. Again, it's not that it cuts better, but it works better in some situations because of the grind and profile. In terms of the steel, either you like the angry, crisp, toothiness of the Denka, or you could prefer Tanaka's B1 or W1, which hold a fine polish incredible well. I don't see either as better and am only mentioning these as examples.

 

[DitmasPork]

May I ask which are the 8 knives you would reach out for before your denka?

In no particular order, as of late I've been using these ahead of my denka for different reasons—Yanick, Raquin, Tetsujin, Shig, K Kato, Watanabe, Takada, Y Katoh, etc. They're all gyutos that cut very well. I'm fortunate enough to have the luxury of changing up the rotation often.

 

[blokey]

In no particular order, as of late I've been using these ahead of my denka for different reasons—Yanick, Raquin, Tetsujin, Shig, K Kato, Watanabe, Takada, Y Katoh, etc. They're all gyutos that cut very well. I'm fortunate enough to have the luxury of changing up the rotation often.

Got try Y Kato sometimes, heard a lot of good things about his stuff.

 

[gc0220]

This is a serious question. Last year I bought my first denka, and then another......and then a third. I have the full compliment now, a 210, a 240, and a 270. They have emerged as favorites. Only 1 knife in my collection rivals them, a 240 Shi.Han AEB-L, well maybe a Halcyon Forge 52100. I have bought a number of knives since then, good ones, but still my hand reaches for the denkas.
Who can unseat them? Is there another middle weight, stainless clad or SS that cuts better? I seek the wisdom and experience of the forum!

(This is not a paid endorsement)

I have 3 Denka, just got another one in the mail today straight from Japan. I'm not expert though thats why I wanted to find a thread to ask some questions about. Anyway, as far as what gives you same level of subjective experience, you should try some ZDP knives. ZDP is generally 66 rc, which is very similar to Denka, it's a great but often misunderstood steel, like most **** in knife land honestly lets be real. Like subjectively, what feels similar to cutting with Denka is always the ZDP, the ZDP will stay sharp idk 3x 4x maybe 5x longer in real world use though. It will also take you know more work than super blue obviously to sharpen, but I generally don't let my stuff get dull to the point of needing anything other than polishing stone touch up, unless of course you get a chip. In the case of chipping, ZDP is much less chippy than Denka steel. Like a lot. I've seen microchips in Denkas a bunch. I've never even seen a microchip in any of my 4 current ZDP knives. The issue is, there isn't much choice in what to get and everything is expensive generally. Just for the record though ZDP is not bad to sharpen at all. It does just fine on regular whetstones and takes screaming edges. The kind of edges you only find on stuff like super blue at 65+ rc. IMO the ZDP is overall better. But I just emotionally like my denka.

The denka I just got today doesn't have KU finish over the spine. It's basically just squared off 90 degrees grinded, bare metal. I've never seen that on a denka before, this one came straight from Japan, so IDK if this is just a thing now or what's happening. Haven't found a good thread to ask that yet so I'll just put it here too in case anyone knows.

 

[gc0220]

Got try Y Kato sometimes, heard a lot of good things about his stuff.

They're okay. The profiles are very consistent because they're stamped. The grinds are all hollow from what I've seen and clearly done quick and dirty. IMO those knives cost vastly more than they're worth. I have 3 I think from when I first started as those are so common and commonly hyped. I wouldn't really purchase them again or suggest them to anyone. They're just way too expensive for what they actually are. Not bad knives by any means, but you could do better for less.

 

[blokey]

They're okay. The profiles are very consistent because they're stamped. The grinds are all hollow from what I've seen and clearly done quick and dirty. IMO those knives cost vastly more than they're worth. I have 3 I think from when I first started as those are so common and commonly hyped. I wouldn't really purchase them again or suggest them to anyone. They're just way too expensive for what they actually are. Not bad knives by any means, but you could do better for less.

Y Kato is forged from preliminated plates, they have pretty thick tang and some distal taper.

 

[blokey]

I don’t think what makes Denka cuts good is their HRC, their HT is not exactly secret and would result in around 64-65 HRC, as see in discussion here. Aogami Super. From my personal perspective I think what makes them good is combination of good steel properties and good balance, even the thin Denka have substantial feel to them. Birgersson and Spåre ApexUltra is certified over 66 HRC yet they feel different, still good tho. I think it is also worthwhile to discuss lath martensite vs plate martensite in Carbon steel vs high chromium steel.

 

[gc0220]

I don’t think what makes Denka cuts good is their HRC, their HT is not exactly secret and would result in around 64-65 HRC, as see in discussion here. Aogami Super. From my personal perspective I think what makes them good is combination of good steel properties and good balance, even the thin Denka have substantial feel to them. Birgersson and Spåre ApexUltra is certified over 66 HRC yet they feel different, still good tho. I think it is also worthwhile to discuss lath martensite vs plate martensite in Carbon steel vs high chromium steel.

Idk, every batch of Denkas seems to have wild variations in my experience. I doubt much could be said that's generally true about them across the board because they're like different knives each batch almost it would seem. I know that super blue is low alloy and very fine grained, when it's taken to the kind of hardness you find in the denka it's often chippy but the cutting otherwise feels different from other knives. I think thats cuz it's harder. I also thinks that kinda common sense. The issue with the denka other than the price and seeming lack of any quality control is the steel is often quite brittle. Still, it's very fine grained, has little abrasion resistance and thus sharpens very easily, and it's very hard, so ofc it takes screaming edges. The other stuff I've seen used in kitchen knives that has that same feel subjectively is ZDP, except the ZDP stays sharp legitimately at least 4x as long in real use and is considerably less likely to chip. When you cut with it, the feeling you get as it bites into things and cut through them is very much like the denka. I'm assuming this is because they are both harder than most other stuff.

When I think of a denka, I don't think of any particular or special grind or even any particular dynamic or whatever other than the finger notch. What I think of very hard ass super blue steel. One Denka might be super light and very well balanced, another one might feel heavier than even than a big ol thick factory knife. All of that comes down to preference anyway. I prefer lighter thinner knives. So to me, what cuts better than a denka is another hard ass steel that likewise takes screaming edges, but has got much more edge retention and is less likely to chip.

Not even the finger notch is there on all denkas so basically the only two things you can bet on are 1, what quality control? and 2, hard ass super blue steel. The handles, grinds, notches, all that **** goes denka by denka.

The real question though is have you seen a denka that has a spine like the one I just got?

 

[blokey]

Idk, every batch of Denkas seems to have wild variations in my experience. I doubt much could be said that's generally true about them across the board because they're like different knives each batch almost it would seem. I know that super blue is low alloy and very fine grained, when it's taken to the kind of hardness you find in the denka it's often chippy but the cutting otherwise feels different from other knives. I think thats cuz it's harder. I also thinks that kinda common sense. The issue with the denka other than the price and seeming lack of any quality control is the steel is often quite brittle. Still, it's very fine grained, has little abrasion resistance and thus sharpens very easily, and it's very hard, so ofc it takes screaming edges. The other stuff I've seen used in kitchen knives that has that same feel subjectively is ZDP, except the ZDP stays sharp legitimately at least 4x as long in real use and is considerably less likely to chip. When you cut with it, the feeling you get as it bites into things and cut through them is very much like the denka. I'm assuming this is because they are both harder than most other stuff.

When I think of a denka, I don't think of any particular or special grind or even any particular dynamic or whatever other than the finger notch. What I think of very hard ass super blue steel. One Denka might be super light and very well balanced, another one might feel heavier than even than a big ol thick factory knife. All of that comes down to preference anyway. I prefer lighter thinner knives. So to me, what cuts better than a denka is another hard ass steel that likewise takes screaming edges, but has got much more edge retention and is less likely to chip.

Not even the finger notch is there on all denkas so basically the only two things you can bet on are 1, what quality control? and 2, hard ass super blue steel. The handles, grinds, notches, all that **** goes denka by denka.

The real question though is have you seen a denka that has a spine like the one I just got?

They are wildly variable, but i have yet encounter one weighless than 200g and have a back heavy balance. Chippy doesn't necessarily mean harder just low toughness, vg10 at 60HRC can be chippy if not treated properily. The hardness of Denka can be tested, and they are not as hard as people think, they just have really good edge stability that can be take to a zero grind, which can't be said for a lot of other AS steel knife. Sukenari used to take their AS to 65 tested, yet their edge stability is not as good. The biting feel is not from hardness, I have a 5160 knife at 60 HRC that bites, it has more to do with microstructure, thus why I present the Lath martensite and plate Martensite, personally I assume due to the fall off behavior of lath martensite (needle like structure) it gives the knife more agressive edge for longer time while plate martensite just become smoother and rounded.

I think the Shi.Han mentioned in op's post is a good example, think of it Shi.Han is the compeltely opposite of Denka in alot of ways, Shehan never take his steel beyond 62 HRC, most of his knife are not thin behind the edge, yet OP and I both agree it is one of the best cutters available, for me my Shi.Han A2 is better than Denka. So no, thin and hard is not the only way a knife could cut really good.

 

[gc0220]

They are wildly variable, but i have yet encounter one weighless than 200g and have a back heavy balance. Chippy doesn't necessarily mean harder just low toughness, vg10 at 60HRC can be chippy if not treated properily. The hardness of Denka can be tested, and they are not as hard as people think, they just have really good edge stability that can be take to a zero grind, which can't be said for a lot of other AS steel knife. Sukenari used to take their AS to 65 tested, yet their edge stability is not as good. The biting feel is not from hardness, I have a 5160 knife at 60 HRC that bites, it has more to do with microstructure, thus why I present the Lath martensite and plate Martensite, personally I assume due to the fall off behavior of lath martensite (needle like structure) it gives the knife more agressive edge for longer time while plate martensite just become smoother and rounded.

I think the Shi.Han mentioned in op's post is a good example, think of it Shi.Han is the compeltely opposite of Denka in alot of ways, Shehan never take his steel beyond 62 HRC, most of his knife are not thin behind the edge, yet OP and I both agree it is one of the best cutters available, for me my Shi.Han A2 is better than Denka. So no, thin and hard is not the only way a knife could cut really good.

Interesting


The way I understand is basically edge keenness is just a function of the apex acuteness, and obviously harder steel can support more acute apex.

Anyway I always tell folks to save their money and get a Morikata if they want to try a hard super blue knife. Plus that knife is a nice platform for doing your own grind with much more reasonable price. I own all this crap but I dont get emotionally invested in it the way a lot of people seem to. I openly admit most of the knives I own are over priced and generally not worth any sane person's time or money. Japanese knives in general are incredibly over hyped, and generally just as overpriced here in the US at least. Really when I think about it like ontologically, it's basically just an outgrowth of bordem + expendable income.

 

[FishmanDE]

If we’re talking pure cutting, my top 5 in order is:

Watanabe B2
Konosuke fuji B2
Ashi ginga
Shihan A2
Steel By lundberg

But the Watanabe is the best pure cutter. The thing just ghosts everything. I tried a Denka before but honestly wasn’t impressed. That said, I LOVE the mab steel. I have 2 mabs and they’re both some of my favs. That said, I think I love the heiji high carbon steel most.

 

[JASinIL2006]

I have a Denka and a Kono Fuji blue#2, and while I love the Kono, I actually think the Denka is a better cutter and holds a finer edge.

 

[blokey]

I had the Fuji Funayuki, it's a cutter, but the thin and light is just not my style. Tho weirdly I like the not much heavier Yoshikane.

 

[Metallicats44]

This is a serious question. Last year I bought my first denka, and then another......and then a third. I have the full compliment now, a 210, a 240, and a 270. They have emerged as favorites. Only 1 knife in my collection rivals them, a 240 Shi.Han AEB-L, well maybe a Halcyon Forge 52100. I have bought a number of knives since then, good ones, but still my hand reaches for the denkas.
Who can unseat them? Is there another middle weight, stainless clad or SS that cuts better? I seek the wisdom and experience of the forum!

(This is not a paid endorsement)

Glad I found this thread! In the market to get a Denka and considering the 210 or 240 with a wa. What handles are yours?? I’ve read that the 240 is better balanced and feel when it has the wa.. any truth to that from your experience? It’s about a $400 difference between the two ..BUT I’ve learned in times like these, it’s better to listen to the and not the wallet. Someday may get both but one at a time for now. Im 6’2 so 240 isn’t too much knife for me but enjoy 210 and 240.

 

[JASinIL2006]

I have a 210 Denka with a wa handle (and finger notch) and it easily is my most-used knife. Even after getting the 'TF regrind treatment' at District Cutlery, the Denka is still a substantial knife. I'd love to have a 240, but 210 seems to be my sweet spot and the additional cost of 240s is a consideration, too.

 

[Cliff]

It's true, there is a big premium as one moves up in price. I have a 240 Yo and love it. It is a substantial knife but cuts incredibly well. I haven't evened out the bevels yet, but it came nice and thin behind the edge. Performance-wise, I can't see a reason to tinker with it. The profile is a little curvier than I'd like, which I will likely work out over time, though the edge last so long that I never need to sharpen it.

 

[Heckel7302]

I'm happy with my 210 Wa. Given the price difference for the 240, there are other 240s in that price range I'd rather spend that kind of money on.

For Wa handle, the stock ho handle isn't much to write home about. The OEM ebony handle is outrageously expensive. I ordered mine with the handle loose and installed a custom handle, which got me exactly what I wanted at a significantly lower price than TF's ebony.

 

[mengwong]

So I happen to have a foot in each camp:

I have a 210 Denka with a wa handle […] after getting the 'TF regrind treatment' at District Cutlery

but also

I have a 240 Yo and love it.

I’d say if you’re a pro cook or $$$$$ or into workhorses, go 240

If you prefer lasers or want to pretend you’re a short person, go 210 + DC spa

If I were in CA I would offer a test drive but sadly I’m 9 time zones away.

Note stickers proudly affixed