What first and durable japanese knife should I get

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Thank you for your answers.

Concerning the teak cutting board, this thread is interesting. I could do the same as the OP if the change allows for greater sustainability.

I don't think that having a cheap knife would be good, because I want to have a knife that lasts several years. I would like to be able to change it because I want to and not because it is unusable. Also, I think I would be much less careful. I can train very well on knives I already have.

I would take a gyuto for push-cut and the nakiri for chop.
In addition, I would like to have two to avoid bacterial contamination.

@rmrf : between steels there can be big differences (e.g. martensite vs ferrite + perlite). Between steels for knives, the difference in theory is much smaller, but I don't know if in practice there are differences. What I mean concretely is that I don't want to get a bread knife after several years because the elasticity of the steel was not good.

I found this in my research :
View attachment 109197
Of course factors other than the type of steel can influence the final characteristics, but do you generally agree?
So a carbon knife coated with stainless steel seems to be a good option.

Now the negative point is stains and rust. What care should be taken?
For example, @Benuser offers me JCK Natures Deep Impact Series Gyuto. I find it pretty and the comments are excellent. Some people talk about a bit of rust and stains. Probably because they didn't take enough care of it.
In the end, what does the patina look like?
Once a patina got installed it doesn't require any other care than with other knives. Don't leave it dirty overnight — or the edge will dull. Aogami Super isn't very reactive. It will take some very heavy abuse to have it rust. Have seen a knife that was put away dirty for half a year. There were a few superficial rust spots on the lamination line I got away with a simple sharpening.
IMG-20180525-192924.jpg
 
I have a few stainless Gyutos. My favourite is the Kaeru Stainless from Japanese Natural Stones. It is surprisingly reasonable and the fit and finish is great. If this is your entry into the Japanese Knife world I would suggest the Kaeru. It cuts extremely well, sharpens well and has a wonderful profile.

https://www.japanesenaturalstones.com/kaeru-kasumi-stainless-gyuto-210mm/
 
I second the Kaeru. (It's SLD, as far as I know, not SKD?)

Good shape and grind, not too thin, easy to sharpen, stainless, and excellent value for money. Perfect entry-level knife.
 
I second the Kaeru. (It's SLD, as far as I know, not SKD?)

Good shape and grind, not too thin, easy to sharpen, stainless, and excellent value for money. Perfect entry-level knife.

Yes SLD - correct. The ones I just got you have described precisely - not too thin, spine with some heft, perfect profile - really sharp. It looks fabulous feels great in the hand. At 185 gm, it’s a good weight

I am tempted to try the iron clad WH Gyuto by them - 240 gm. Sounds very interesting
 
I found this in my research :
Whose table is that? How did they come up with it? Just showing it by itself as if it's meaningful that way, doesn't help as much as showing why. (Many rankings of knives and rankings of steels are just subjective garbage with no data and no evidence, including websites where people rank knives they've never tried and steels they've never seen.)

Newbies like me really love rankings, so people who want their website to gain popularity will throw together a ranking chart just to attract clicks.
 
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Whose table is that? How did they come up with it? Just showing it by itself as if it's meaningful that way, doesn't help as much as showing why. (Many rankings of knives and rankings of steels are just subjective garbage with no data and no evidence, including websites where people rank knives they've never tried and steels they've never seen.)

Newbies like me really love rankings, so people who want their website to gain popularity will throw together a ranking chart just to attract clicks.

I also heard that regardless of steel, it’s the actual heat treatment of the blade-smith that gets the virtues out of the steel - not sure how that figures in this table
 
Yes SLD - correct. The ones I just got you have described precisely - not too thin, spine with some heft, perfect profile - really sharp. It looks fabulous feels great in the hand. At 185 gm, it’s a good weight

I am tempted to try the iron clad WH Gyuto by them - 240 gm. Sounds very interesting


I am in the same boat as you on wanting to try the Kaeru WH. Looks to have some great specs.
 
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Once a patina got installed it doesn't require any other care than with other knives. Don't leave it dirty overnight — or the edge will dull. Aogami Super isn't very reactive. It will take some very heavy abuse to have it rust. Have seen a knife that was put away dirty for half a year. There were a few superficial rust spots on the lamination line I got away with a simple sharpening.
View attachment 109247
Just saw this very nice picture by @ModRQC of the JCK Nature Deep Impact AS. I guess he will forgive me.
11_MasahiroJCK.JPG
 
I also heard that regardless of steel, it’s the actual heat treatment of the blade-smith that gets the virtues out of the steel - not sure how that figures in this table
...and some steels are tricky to harden well, while others are not as difficult.
 
Haha it's especially funny now that I've read the bits about the teak board. In mine picture the board underneath those two fine knives is teak. I've been using it quite a lot, without any special treatment but to oil and wax it, and without noticing it being any more adverse to my knives than any other good board - not just those two knives, but a lot of different steels. Not going against the theory of silicate content being detrimental to the edge. Will just use another bout of theory to tell you: if going there buy end grain teak. It's fine. Just don't pay for it what can buy you a better choice of wood. This sample here is dirt cheap on Amazon. Must be ready to give it some work though.
 
Haha it's especially funny now that I've read the bits about the teak board. In mine picture the board underneath those two fine knives is teak. I've been using it quite a lot, without any special treatment but to oil and wax it, and without noticing it being any more adverse to my knives than any other good board - not just those two knives, but a lot of different steels. Not going against the theory of silicate content being detrimental to the edge. Will just use another bout of theory to tell you: if going there buy end grain teak. It's fine. Just don't pay for it what can buy you a better choice of wood. This sample here is dirt cheap on Amazon. Must be ready to give it some work though.
It probably also depends on the ways people use their knives - I'm clumsy and my knife makes more contact with the board than it needs to. Some of you guys with more practice and more skill can probably use concrete. :)
 
It probably also depends on the ways people use their knives - I'm clumsy and my knife makes more contact with the board than it needs to. Some of you guys with more practice and more skill can probably use concrete. :)
I can't. Knife edge on concrete is like nails scratching a chalkboard for me.
 
I'm clumsy and my knife makes more contact with the board than it needs to.
wat? Is everyone else a master of air-cutting while I'm here stupidly pressing my knife against the cutting board? Why didn't y'all tell me
 
I just sharpen my knives to the point where the produce splits apart before the knife actually touches it. That's what fear can do. And I get good edge retention that way… ;)
 
For low maintainance I would recommend a softer steel plus a dick micro.
If you wouldnt have said Japanese I would probably recommend a herder 1922.

The higher alloyed steels with high edge retention only make sense if you are already really good at sharpening or at least plan on becoming really good imo.

I think it would make sense to get a herder 1922 and a nice Japanese nakiri, maybe a wakui or watanabe pro. That way you can learn more about what you appreciate. Add a dick micro and a naniwa Pro 1000 and you are good to go for the start. (And also get a herder parer 😁)
 
wat? Is everyone else a master of air-cutting while I'm here stupidly pressing my knife against the cutting board? Why didn't y'all tell me
Some people, when you tell them "Don't mash the knife into the board so hard like that, it wastes time and energy and isn't good for the knife", they listen and they realize it's true so they lighten up a bit on their follow-through. Other people, like me, don't do so well on that. Whether it's because I'm used to a warped board or knives that might not cut, or whether I'm just clumsy and not trying hard enough, I can't say.
 
a softer steel plus a dick micro.
Can you recommend a good set of instructions (written, or pictures, or video) for how to use that properly? I remember watching my father, but I don't remember how he did it, and I don't think he was good at it. And I suspect there's a lot of video out there of others who don't know how to do it but who think they do...
 
Sounds to me like someone is on the hunt for a classic Tanaka ginsan nashiji gyuto from Knives & Stones. Easy to get sharp, keeps sharp for a good while, stainless so easy maintenance, Blade heavy balance, mid weight knife with decent food release with over all great performance and a ruggedly handsome fellow to boot. K&S will sharpen it for you if requested.

One more vote for the Kaeru SS. It hits the mark too, but the semiSS core will patina slowly over time. Easy fix though. If your ok with that it has some of the best price to performance ratio around.
 
Thank you for the website!
I found some gyuto :
- Ashi Hamono Shirogami
- Konosuke GS / GS+ (blade too thin?)
- RyuSen Super Gold (edge hardness too hard?)
- Kei Kobayashi SG2 Morado (edge hardness too hard?)

Can you recommend a reference or another one?
Yes I think the Konosuke GS is too thin. I have a Konosuke; GS, HD2, Fujiyama knives and while it holds a nice edge the GS is really light and thin. All of the other Konosuke knives are excellent.
 
Sounds to me like someone is on the hunt for a classic Tanaka ginsan nashiji gyuto from Knives & Stones. Easy to get sharp, keeps sharp for a good while, stainless so easy maintenance, Blade heavy balance, mid weight knife with decent food release with over all great performance and a ruggedly handsome fellow to boot. K&S will sharpen it for you if requested.

Love my Tanaka Ginsan from KNS! Excellent knife, period. Amazing value. Definite keeper for me.
 
The Ginsan I had was very nice but super thin at the edge, I'm not sure I would recommend that to someone who wants a more 'carefree knife'
 
Can you recommend a good set of instructions (written, or pictures, or video) for how to use that properly? I remember watching my father, but I don't remember how he did it, and I don't think he was good at it. And I suspect there's a lot of video out there of others who don't know how to do it but who think they do...

I don't have a good video at hand, but its not that complicated. You strop the knife with edge leading strokes from heel to tip on the steel with an angle slightly higher than the sharpening angle. The more inexperienced you are and/or the harder the steel of the blade, the slower you should go.
Also its most efficient with softer steels
 
I don't have a good video at hand, but its not that complicated. You strop the knife with edge leading strokes from heel to tip on the steel with an angle slightly higher than the sharpening angle. The more inexperienced you are and/or the harder the steel of the blade, the slower you should go.
Also its most efficient with softer steels
Apply a very, very light touch. And be aware that the Dick Micro doesn't abrade fatigued steel — nor does it cause steel fatigue in the same way as coarser rods do, by the way. At some moment you will still have to go to the stones and remove the fatigued steel, probably starting with a coarser stone than you would use for normal maintenance.
 
Apply a very, very light touch. And be aware that the Dick Micro doesn't abrade fatigued steel — nor does it cause steel fatigue in the same way as coarser rods do, by the way. At some moment you will still have to go to the stones and remove the fatigued steel, probably starting with a coarser stone than you would use for normal maintenance.
Thx for the addition.
 
What are you planning to do with it that makes you ask for something 'durable'?
 
What are you planning to do with it that makes you ask for something 'durable'?

Normal use. So not a knife that rusts easily or is brittle.

So to summarize, here are your proposals:
  • JCK Natures Deep Impact Series: semi-stainless / steel: Aogami Super (Blue Super) / HRC: 64-65 / weight: 182 g / 180 USD (sold out)
  • Tanaka Ginsan Nashiji : semi-stainless / steel: Ginsan core with stainless clad / HRC: 60-61 / weight: 174 g / 199 USD (sold out)
  • Kagekiyo Ginsan : semi-stainless / steel: Ginsan (Silver 3) stainless steel and cladded in stainless steel / HRC : ? / weight: 138 g / 350 USD (sold out)
  • Kagekiyo Ginsan : stainless / steel: ? / HRC : ? / weight: 134 g / 355 USD (sold out)
  • Kaeru Kasumi Stainless: stainless / steel: Hitachi SLD clad with softer stainless / HRC: ? / weight: 155 g / 200 USD
  • Kaeru Kasumi Workhorse : non-stainless / steel: White 2 steel with Iron Cladding / HRC: ? / weight: 206 g / 370 USD (sold out)
  • Munetoshi Kurouchi : non-stainless / steel: White Steel / HRC: ? / weight: 185 g / 250 USD
  • Gesshin Heiji : semi-stainless / steel: ? / HRC: ? / weight: 194 g / 350 USD (sold out)
You seem to recommend to me the Kaeru Kasumi Stainless. Moreover it's one of the only ones in the list to be available at the moment.
So I'm thinking of choosing it.
Anyone think I can make a better choice? For a knife on the list or not.
 
Normal use. So not a knife that rusts easily or is brittle.

So to summarize, here are your proposals:
  • JCK Natures Deep Impact Series: semi-stainless / steel: Aogami Super (Blue Super) / HRC: 64-65 / weight: 182 g / 180 USD (sold out)
  • Tanaka Ginsan Nashiji : semi-stainless / steel: Ginsan core with stainless clad / HRC: 60-61 / weight: 174 g / 199 USD (sold out)
  • Kagekiyo Ginsan : semi-stainless / steel: Ginsan (Silver 3) stainless steel and cladded in stainless steel / HRC : ? / weight: 138 g / 350 USD (sold out)
  • Kagekiyo Ginsan : stainless / steel: ? / HRC : ? / weight: 134 g / 355 USD (sold out)
  • Kaeru Kasumi Stainless: stainless / steel: Hitachi SLD clad with softer stainless / HRC: ? / weight: 155 g / 200 USD
  • Kaeru Kasumi Workhorse : non-stainless / steel: White 2 steel with Iron Cladding / HRC: ? / weight: 206 g / 370 USD (sold out)
  • Munetoshi Kurouchi : non-stainless / steel: White Steel / HRC: ? / weight: 185 g / 250 USD
  • Gesshin Heiji : semi-stainless / steel: ? / HRC: ? / weight: 194 g / 350 USD (sold out)
You seem to recommend to me the Kaeru Kasumi Stainless. Moreover it's one of the only ones in the list to be available at the moment.
So I'm thinking of choosing it.
Anyone think I can make a better choice? For a knife on the list or not.

fyi, the tanaka ginsan is available at the main AU site
https://www.knivesandstones.com.au/...anaka-ginsan-nashiji-gyuto-210mm-ebony-handle
 
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