What is a wide bevel knife?

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yoyoma

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I know what a bevel is, but I just don't get what a wide bevel knife refers to. How is it different from a non-wide bevel knife?

I googled and found multiple KKF threads and none of them helped.
 
I googled and found multiple KKF threads and none of them helped.
A common problem. Thread hijackings are so rampant that management has seriously considered undercover thread marshalls to deal with the problem. But however derailed the ride may be, at least it's a fun one!
 
From my understanding (and I could be wrong), it is when there is a clear physical and visual bevel that is wide / tall.

This is in contrast to many knives that may not actually have a clearly defined / visualized bevel OR a bevel that is much smaller / shorter

Wide bevel example: Tanaka x Kyuzo varieties

Non Wide Bevel example: Kato Kasumi, Yanick, Raquin
 
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I know what a bevel is, but I just don't get what a wide bevel knife refers to. How is it different from a non-wide bevel knife?

I googled and found multiple KKF threads and none of them helped.
Kono Fuji — wide bevel type specimen.

1719685408120.jpeg


Compare to a Moritaka, not wide bevel.

1719685508971.jpeg
 
So if I'm understanding correctly, the "width" of the bevel actually refers to it's height. For example, if we had a 50mm tall gyuto and the bevel started right at the very top of the knife (spine), that would be the maximally "wide" bevel that the knife could be ground at? And if we had the same knife, but instead only decided to put a bevel on at the last 5mm (from the cutting edge), this would be considered a "thin" bevel knife?
 
Raquin, Isasmedjan, Milan, Yannick, Catcheside and Takeda are examples of low bevel knives. A high bevel would be a more typical Mazaki, Nakagawa, Shibata etc.
My Shibata (got it coming off the liiiiine, Shibata) has no perceptible bevel; smooth convex from edge to spine. Am I missing something?
 
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Think of a wide bevel knife sort of like a single bevel, only these are double bevel. The wide flat bevel that extends from the shinogi all the way to the edge of the single bevel is basically what is on both sides of a wide bevel. Just trying to give a mental picture here.

For wide bevels, you sharpen the entire bevel from the shinogi down, there is no distinct edge bevel.
 
Old term for “wide bevel” has been “hollow grind”. It’s a raised shinogi. It applies more to wheel ground bevels (concave) rather than convex that still have high/raised shinogi.

Note aside: Wide concave bevels are hard to polish on whetstones due to their concavity shapes.
 
Old term for “wide bevel” has been “hollow grind”. It’s a raised shinogi. It applies more to wheel ground bevels (concave) rather than convex that still have high/raised shinogi.

Note aside: Wide concave bevels are hard to polish on whetstones due to their concavity shapes.

Wide bevels don't have to be hollow though. And with many hollow grinds you still have a distinct edge bevel.

At least that's my understanding.
 
I guess to confirm for myself too.

Low Bevel: birgersson, yanicks, simon

High bevel; Kyuzo, togashis, most morihiros

????: Hado
But where is the line between low and high and are both of these considered 'wide' 🤔 Can make it even more complicated on Japanese knives with beta-togi (like a scandi) or hamaguri (convex) grinds and zero edges...
 
So if I'm understanding correctly, the "width" of the bevel actually refers to it's height. For example, if we had a 50mm tall gyuto and the bevel started right at the very top of the knife (spine), that would be the maximally "wide" bevel that the knife could be ground at? And if we had the same knife, but instead only decided to put a bevel on at the last 5mm (from the cutting edge), this would be considered a "thin" bevel knife?
If you had a knife where the bevel started at the spine it would be considered full flat grind. You wouldn't really call it wide bevel and you wouldn't normally sharpen the whole face of the blade, there would be another very thin bevel. The examples given to you are good, there is no real definition on the exact ratios, but it is pretty obvious when you see it on a knife. Wide bevel doesn't have to be concave, they often are due to a wheel being used to grind them.
 
But where is the line between low and high and are both of these considered 'wide' 🤔 Can make it even more complicated on Japanese knives with beta-togi (like a scandi) or hamaguri (convex) grinds and zero edges...
It’s a continuum. Six-five and pick’m.
 
I did not exclude convex grinds. But technically wide bevel can be both convex and concave, what u see more as wide bevel now are concave wheel ground ones (Morihiro, Kyuzo, Maruyama, Ren). Nobody calls a wide bevel a Shihan or Mazaki or Myojin or any convex grind.
 
I did not exclude convex grinds. But technically wide bevel can be both convex and concave, what u see more as wide bevel now are concave wheel ground ones (Morihiro, Kyuzo, Maruyama, Ren). Nobody calls a wide bevel a Shihan or Mazaki or Myojin or any convex grind.
now I’m on board, thanks.
 
Okay, so what I'm understanding is that a "wide bevel knife" is one where the grind starts closer to the spine than non-wide bevel knives.

Some other people are also saying that the angle of the grind is important too (concave vs convex), but that does not seem to be unanimous.
 
Okay, so what I'm understanding is that a "wide bevel knife" is one where the grind starts closer to the spine than non-wide bevel knives.

Some other people are also saying that the angle of the grind is important too (concave vs convex), but that does not seem to be unanimous.
For me does not matter where the shoulder starts/ends (high/low bevel). For me wide bevel is a concave grind. I put a wide bevel (concave/ wheel ground) on the stones and its a pain in the ass to polish. The shinogi line/shoulder, its up to the sharpener where he wants it. So yeah, for me wide bevel is a concave grind, not where the shinogi/shoulder starts or ends.
 
For me does not matter where the shoulder starts/ends (high/low bevel). For me wide bevel is a concave grind. I put a wide bevel (concave/ wheel ground) on the stones and its a pain in the ass to polish. The shinogi line/shoulder, its up to the sharpener where he wants it. So yeah, for me wide bevel is a concave grind, not where the shinogi/shoulder starts or ends.

Sounds like there is no agreement over what "wide bevel" means then.

I leave more confused than when I arrived.
 
You will get there, no worries. And sorry but the intent of my point of view was not to confuse u but sometimes we have to agree to disagree on other people's opinions.
 
You will get there, no worries. And sorry but the intent of my point of view was not to confuse u but sometimes we have to agree to disagree on other people's opinions.

Ah, I wasn't criticizing you! It really does look like there is no clear consensus on what defines a wide bevel vs not wide bevel, it's a nebulous term.
 
The spine comes down to the shinogi line. Then from that line, the bevel starts and angles down to become the cutting edge. It is basically the same on each side so something of a wedge if you will from the shinogi down.
 
The spine comes down to the shinogi line. Then from that line, the bevel starts and angles down to become the cutting edge. It is basically the same on each side so something of a wedge if you will from the shinogi down.

But don't 99% of knives sold meet that criteria? How would a non-wide bevel knife be different from that?

Takeda, for example, meets that definition, but it's been offered as an example of the opposite of a wide bevel knife.
 
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