What is the performance difference between a "laser" sujihiki vs a "workhorse" sujihiki

Discussion in 'The Kitchen Knife' started by aszma, Aug 26, 2019.

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  1. Aug 26, 2019 #1

    aszma

    aszma

    aszma

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    Just curious what the difference in performance between a laser and a workhorse sujihiki such as if i were to buy a shibata sujihiki vs a toyama but strictly in terms of how different grinds affect cutting proteins.

    Just to be more specific i know for example a thicker gyuto will have better food release vs a laser which will go through food better but I feel like food release is not a huge factor in cutting proteins so why would I want a thicker suji like a toyama or wat vs buying a less expensive geshin ginga or somthing more lasery
     
    Last edited: Aug 26, 2019
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  2. Aug 26, 2019 #2

    zizirex

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    I'm guessing the food release? I am also want to know what's with Toyama that everybody devours for? is it really worth the price? I am guessing the crazy distal taper is what makes it an interesting knife.
    I also want to know the perfect explanation because some people love laser knife, some people love a hefty knife, and I want to know from people's opinion.
     
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  3. Aug 26, 2019 #3

    Jville

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    Toyamas don't have dramatic distal taper, that's not there strength at least imo and experience.
     
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  4. Aug 26, 2019 #4

    Benuser

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    I wouldn't say food release is no factor with proteins. Dragging can be annoying with raw meat. As with cooked meat like a pork roast food release is an important factor to me.
     
  5. Aug 26, 2019 #5

    osakajoe

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    Workhorses tend to be thick so the can take more abuse. This also means then are thick and need more force to cut through thicker “harder “ items and no finesse . This means they also get stuck more.

    Thinner “lasers “ cut through more smoothly but at the cost of being more fragile. But if ground flat they also stick, which happens a lot with the machine Made knives.

    This is why many hand ground knives in Japan are asymmetrical
     
  6. Aug 26, 2019 #6

    GorillaGrunt

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    Stiffness is also a parameter with a slicer - a thin suji can be flexy, which isn’t always a bad thing, but for cooked protein I prefer stiffness. Mazaki is a good example of one thick at the handle, which makes it rigid, but thin towards the tip.
     
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  7. Aug 26, 2019 #7
    In my experience the heavier suji flex less and like a heavier gyuto they seem to do some of the work for you. A lighter one will cut through heavy product but may require work to do so and you may get some wavy lines in the product. My lightest suji is a Suisin IH at about 150g, heaviest is a Heiji at 220ish g. The Wats and a Toyama are all about 180g - seems to be a sweet spot for a suji.

    Most of the suji do not have much distal taper. I used a Marko with a noticeably thinner tip and liked it a lot. Enough so that I ordered a couple Wats and asked Sin to make them as thin at the tip as he was comfortable with. Like.
     
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  8. Aug 26, 2019 #8

    zizirex

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    I see. I have an Anryu suji that is not to thick but thin enough to be called semi-laser. I use it to slice semi-frozen meat very thinly and I don't have any problem with that, the only problem is that I bought the 270mm which is not long enough, but I bought that Masakane 300mm gyuto and it is a really nice butchering gyuto.
     
  9. Aug 26, 2019 #9

    gman

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    keep in mind that sharpening a 300mm knife that flexes takes a lot more finesse than a shorter and/or stiffer knife
     
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  10. Aug 26, 2019 #10

    panda

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    laser is super thin and flexes. workhorse suji is going to be taller and stiff and much thicker
     
  11. Aug 26, 2019 #11

    HRC_64

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    This is counter-intuitive, but the answer IMHO is ...

    steering...which is relevant to thin-slicing
    (because thin-slices need to be parallel)

    Flat thin grinds don't have shape,
    so they want to track in weird ways; and
    Thin, flexible knives don't want
    to let you controll them, etc.

    Both problems solved by thicker,
    convex grind gyuto or suji.

    Convexity improves steering,
    since drage is limited and angle
    changes are easier (*); stiffness
    allows for more direct inputs
    from handle to blade edge to
    take advantage of this.

    A skinny, flat knife will track
    and wander thru stiff product
    and you will struggle to correct
    it with inputs form the handle/grip.

    (*) This is tru in raw/cooked meat, not in
    stiff, hard squash, root veg, etc
     
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  12. Aug 27, 2019 #12

    McMan

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    My thinking is similar...
    A thicker suji gives the grind more room to operate (if that makes sense—ie, more cross-sectional geometry).
    On a laser suji, it’s basically just the edge that functions, since the blade is so thin and cross-sectionally basically flat.

    Another thing, maybe a tangent, but laser gyuto will be stiffer than laser suji (due to the height—more metal). So, if you really like laser gyuto, this might not translate to really liking a laser suji...
     
    Last edited: Aug 27, 2019
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  13. Aug 28, 2019 #13

    Qapla'

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    I often keep hearing these sorts of tales, and yet even when I slice meats with a yanagiba (which is very asymmetric), even there I can end up with "dragging" in the cuts.
     
  14. Aug 28, 2019 #14

    osakajoe

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    A Yanagiba is a SINGLE BEVEL blade. Not asymmetrical at all. It should be concave on the back.

    There is a very informational thread on grinds here. Please use the search function.

    Here’s one found by searching grinds
    Food Release: Stiction and the Grind
    https://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/index.php?posts/530960/
     
    Last edited: Aug 28, 2019
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  15. Aug 28, 2019 #15

    Cyrilix

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    This makes so much sense. I was actually wondering why my wat nakiri does better on some produce than thinner gyutos, but the answer is probably in the stiffness and ability to cut consistently, which counts a lot in terms of whether or not your knife gets stuck in a hard item.
     
  16. Aug 30, 2019 #16

    Stnakamu

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    Never thought of it this way too.
     

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