So that's why I'm a stay at home dad. It's a good thing my wife does make six figures because having my house and three cars paid off at the old age of 37 sure makes it difficult at times. Want to compare resumes?
What Really is so special about the $300-3000+ knives!?!
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So that's why I'm a stay at home dad. It's a good thing my wife does make six figures because having my house and three cars paid off at the old age of 37 sure makes it difficult at times. Want to compare resumes?
K813zra
Senior Member
Actually in this particular thread there are a lot of pro's. At least those who gave you a direct and or critical/smarty pants answer.
As for what makes the knives different in those price ranges, I think it can be a lot of little things and not so much one dramatic thing. I think if you are looking for the answer that one cuts 100x or even 10x better than the other, you won't find it. More to what you said before, better fit and finish, more attention to detail, higher grade materials including handles and sometimes coming from a more experienced smith and or at least a well known smith. Name does tend to drive price up at times. Sometimes, many probably, demand plays a role too. As does the fact that often times you are getting these knives through a vendor who went through a broker etc. So you are paying markup. Sourced direct from Japan you can often save a chunk of change, where applicable.
However you are pointing out a fair few single bevel knives and on the cheaper end of the spectrum these knives can have significant issues out of the box, or not. Rather many of them take a bit more work to flatten out the blade road. Over and or under grinds. Etc. I guess that is why a lot of folks pay more for less risk. Maybe not $1k more though. Admittedly I have no use for single bevel knives other than sharpening them. ;P
So a lot of things make these knives different. I am not sure that translates to a raw performance gain is a significant margin though.
That is not to say that there are not mega performers out there in the $150-200 range because there are. In fact I find that I like knives in this range a lot for the value that they offer. I guess that makes offerings in this range stand out.
I, however, am but a home cook. (I am neither angry, old nor a stay at home dad.)
As for what makes the knives different in those price ranges, I think it can be a lot of little things and not so much one dramatic thing. I think if you are looking for the answer that one cuts 100x or even 10x better than the other, you won't find it. More to what you said before, better fit and finish, more attention to detail, higher grade materials including handles and sometimes coming from a more experienced smith and or at least a well known smith. Name does tend to drive price up at times. Sometimes, many probably, demand plays a role too. As does the fact that often times you are getting these knives through a vendor who went through a broker etc. So you are paying markup. Sourced direct from Japan you can often save a chunk of change, where applicable.
However you are pointing out a fair few single bevel knives and on the cheaper end of the spectrum these knives can have significant issues out of the box, or not. Rather many of them take a bit more work to flatten out the blade road. Over and or under grinds. Etc. I guess that is why a lot of folks pay more for less risk. Maybe not $1k more though. Admittedly I have no use for single bevel knives other than sharpening them. ;P
So a lot of things make these knives different. I am not sure that translates to a raw performance gain is a significant margin though.
That is not to say that there are not mega performers out there in the $150-200 range because there are. In fact I find that I like knives in this range a lot for the value that they offer. I guess that makes offerings in this range stand out.
I, however, am but a home cook. (I am neither angry, old nor a stay at home dad.)
brainsausage
Senior Member
You must be a hoot at parties.
Pro cook here btw, not that that means **** -all in this instance.
Ok.
I have this knife:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/NAOZUMI-Gy...m=282062128640&_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851
This knife:
http://www.knivesandstones.com/ryusen-blazen-gyuto-240mm-sg2-bz-103/
and this knife:
https://knifewear.com/products/takamura-uchigumo-gyuto-240mm
For a direct comparison:
From $0 - $100
You can buy a knife // it will cut food // you can get it sharp // it will KIIIILLLLLL (Forged.I.F ref)
Jumping from $100-$400
Difference: metal in tang is more even// Bolster is more refined// Pins in scales are actually flush to the scales// choil is eased// handle to blade attachment is more seamless// handle to blade attachment is actually straight // Grind is better// out of box edge is better// final grind marks on side of blade are better// overall appearance, overall build quality is higher // also generally at the higher price points the consistency is better, so heat treat is more likely to be on point as opposed to lower end knives, that may or may not have top tier heat treat // lower end knives may or may not have over grinds // lower end knives may or may not have other issues, where when a knife is more expensive the manufacture will spend more time with quality control.
Jumping $400-800
Damascus cladding // deep etch // perfect choil // perfect grind // perfect tang // perfect blade attachment // perfectly straight --- and if i buy another 10 for my nearest friends they will all be impressively similar.
I have sukenari
Ginsan / YXR / ZDP
for that case its all the steel/ Handle and Damascus that makes the price difference.
For honyaki's its the amount of time that is invested / amount of blades that are made that are tossed for defects / and the final level of polish of the knife / and the consistency of the maker between all blades. -- All play factors in every individual knife.
If $150 is your budget, you can probably get a fantastic knife. It wont have the time dedicated to it as a knife thats 10x the price. and that will reflect in build quality in more ways than are visible in a picture.
I have this knife:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/NAOZUMI-Gy...m=282062128640&_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851
This knife:
http://www.knivesandstones.com/ryusen-blazen-gyuto-240mm-sg2-bz-103/
and this knife:
https://knifewear.com/products/takamura-uchigumo-gyuto-240mm
For a direct comparison:
From $0 - $100
You can buy a knife // it will cut food // you can get it sharp // it will KIIIILLLLLL (Forged.I.F ref)
Jumping from $100-$400
Difference: metal in tang is more even// Bolster is more refined// Pins in scales are actually flush to the scales// choil is eased// handle to blade attachment is more seamless// handle to blade attachment is actually straight // Grind is better// out of box edge is better// final grind marks on side of blade are better// overall appearance, overall build quality is higher // also generally at the higher price points the consistency is better, so heat treat is more likely to be on point as opposed to lower end knives, that may or may not have top tier heat treat // lower end knives may or may not have over grinds // lower end knives may or may not have other issues, where when a knife is more expensive the manufacture will spend more time with quality control.
Jumping $400-800
Damascus cladding // deep etch // perfect choil // perfect grind // perfect tang // perfect blade attachment // perfectly straight --- and if i buy another 10 for my nearest friends they will all be impressively similar.
I have sukenari
Ginsan / YXR / ZDP
for that case its all the steel/ Handle and Damascus that makes the price difference.
For honyaki's its the amount of time that is invested / amount of blades that are made that are tossed for defects / and the final level of polish of the knife / and the consistency of the maker between all blades. -- All play factors in every individual knife.
If $150 is your budget, you can probably get a fantastic knife. It wont have the time dedicated to it as a knife thats 10x the price. and that will reflect in build quality in more ways than are visible in a picture.
FIFY
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There might be a gain in performance if you know how to choose a much more expensive blade, but, as with any other product, performance doesn't usually increase as fast as the price.
HRC_64
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Yeah, I don't think its alwas pay for perfomance...its more that there are performance variations out there. And its up to the buyer to first understand what they are (not related to looks), and then second figure out what level of performance is worth paying for and decide @ what price bracket the end user feels most comfortable in.
TEWNCfarms
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No but can We trade wives and housesvand cars?! And knives too Im sure. I guess Im jealous in reality...
No but can We trade wives and housesvand cars?! And knives too Im sure. I guess Im jealous in reality...
Picture of wife and we can talk. Knives no way in hell
valgard
Stones Addict (terminal case)
OK, sorry but... LMAO you are comparing that Ichimonji that has such a huge overgrind that you can even see it in an OOTB picture of the sample they picked for the presentation (HUGE ASS LOW/OVERGRIND in the middle of the blade) to a Mizuno honyaki???
FWIW I think the Mizuno honyaki is overpriced, but it IS worth a LOT more than the stuff you are comparing with. Time invested in making the knife is the main factor, not the materials.
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this thread is priceless... now <insert any field> and say why do need a $5k camera when a cell phone will do. why do you buy a 70k car when 20k will do
i'll give you one though: in some fields differences are much harder to perceive. this is not one of them...skill level accounts for 80% of difference as higher end you go, the harder it is to use the knife properly (they are usually thinner, more brittle, have more specialize uses, harder to sharpen or polish, etc).
But, if you have the skills to harness their advantages, you are going to end up with faster and cleaner cups and overall, get the job done easier. I am all for saving time.
i'll give you one though: in some fields differences are much harder to perceive. this is not one of them...skill level accounts for 80% of difference as higher end you go, the harder it is to use the knife properly (they are usually thinner, more brittle, have more specialize uses, harder to sharpen or polish, etc).
But, if you have the skills to harness their advantages, you are going to end up with faster and cleaner cups and overall, get the job done easier. I am all for saving time.
Bodine
Senior Member
I'm taking this a different direction.
Now, if you had your choice between Rosie O'Donnell and any number of the worlds most beautiful woman, who would you choose as your wife.
They both can perform the same tasks, bear children and be your wife.
One will cost significantly more to obtain and keep up, but every time you touch her, look at her or ---------her, you get a warm fuzzy feeling inside.
What I am getting at , is that there is more to a knife than the edge, and hand made and beautiful cost more, always has, always will.
Buy what gives you that warm fuzzy feeling.
Now, if you had your choice between Rosie O'Donnell and any number of the worlds most beautiful woman, who would you choose as your wife.
They both can perform the same tasks, bear children and be your wife.
One will cost significantly more to obtain and keep up, but every time you touch her, look at her or ---------her, you get a warm fuzzy feeling inside.
What I am getting at , is that there is more to a knife than the edge, and hand made and beautiful cost more, always has, always will.
Buy what gives you that warm fuzzy feeling.
Salty dog
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FWIW the best performers on this test were the most expensive. But that's just part of the equation.
Corradobrit1
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As a complete novice and amateur I found that video quite interesting. Shame there wasn't a TF in the mix. Based on that unscientific performance test there are some bladesmiths I'd avoid and some I'd def want to search out. But as salty says there could be other factors at play.
Good postOk.
I have this knife:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/NAOZUMI-Gy...m=282062128640&_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851
This knife:
http://www.knivesandstones.com/ryusen-blazen-gyuto-240mm-sg2-bz-103/
and this knife:
https://knifewear.com/products/takamura-uchigumo-gyuto-240mm
For a direct comparison:
From $0 - $100
You can buy a knife // it will cut food // you can get it sharp // it will KIIIILLLLLL (Forged.I.F ref)
Jumping from $100-$400
Difference: metal in tang is more even// Bolster is more refined// Pins in scales are actually flush to the scales// choil is eased// handle to blade attachment is more seamless// handle to blade attachment is actually straight // Grind is better// out of box edge is better// final grind marks on side of blade are better// overall appearance, overall build quality is higher // also generally at the higher price points the consistency is better, so heat treat is more likely to be on point as opposed to lower end knives, that may or may not have top tier heat treat // lower end knives may or may not have over grinds // lower end knives may or may not have other issues, where when a knife is more expensive the manufacture will spend more time with quality control.
Jumping $400-800
Damascus cladding // deep etch // perfect choil // perfect grind // perfect tang // perfect blade attachment // perfectly straight --- and if i buy another 10 for my nearest friends they will all be impressively similar.
I have sukenari
Ginsan / YXR / ZDP
for that case its all the steel/ Handle and Damascus that makes the price difference.
For honyaki's its the amount of time that is invested / amount of blades that are made that are tossed for defects / and the final level of polish of the knife / and the consistency of the maker between all blades. -- All play factors in every individual knife.
If $150 is your budget, you can probably get a fantastic knife. It wont have the time dedicated to it as a knife thats 10x the price. and that will reflect in build quality in more ways than are visible in a picture.
K813zra
Senior Member
When your wife reads this and kills you can I have your KS honyaki?
Grunt173
Senior Member
I'll flip you for it Kit.
Keith Sinclair
Senior Member
You nailed it.:biggrin:
OP, please be civil on this forum. It is dedicated to the appreciation of kitchen knives, and should not really be used for the expression of jeaousies. If you are civil to people here you will find many or most of them will be as helpful as they can, occasionally ridiculously generous. Even the home cooks. Many of whom know a fair bit about kitchen knives.
Now, to your question.
When you pay more for a knife, the things that increase the cost are:
1. Labour and expertise that goes into forging, heat treating, grinding, finishing the blade face, rounding the spine and choil, creating the handle and sharpening.
2. The steel and the materials that go into the handle.
3. Economies of scale probably increase the cost for small makers.
4. Rare, hyped or hard to make knives (especially honyakii) will inrease the cost.
6. A vendor whose business model includes great pre and post sales service can be expected to cost more (and is very cheap insurance in my view).
As Jon B has previously pointed out, it's mostly determined by the craftsman's labour costs.
If you get a 1K knife, does it cut 3x as well as a 300 buck knife? Hell, no. But it will probably be very nicely finished, with a nice handle, maybe a well thought our profile or grind or it may be a honyaki. Or a shig.
For me, the sweet spot for price vs performance is maybe 2-300 usd. But that doesn't mean that more expensive knives are a rip off. It's just that they offer something different.
Hope this helps.
Now, to your question.
When you pay more for a knife, the things that increase the cost are:
1. Labour and expertise that goes into forging, heat treating, grinding, finishing the blade face, rounding the spine and choil, creating the handle and sharpening.
2. The steel and the materials that go into the handle.
3. Economies of scale probably increase the cost for small makers.
4. Rare, hyped or hard to make knives (especially honyakii) will inrease the cost.
6. A vendor whose business model includes great pre and post sales service can be expected to cost more (and is very cheap insurance in my view).
As Jon B has previously pointed out, it's mostly determined by the craftsman's labour costs.
If you get a 1K knife, does it cut 3x as well as a 300 buck knife? Hell, no. But it will probably be very nicely finished, with a nice handle, maybe a well thought our profile or grind or it may be a honyaki. Or a shig.
For me, the sweet spot for price vs performance is maybe 2-300 usd. But that doesn't mean that more expensive knives are a rip off. It's just that they offer something different.
Hope this helps.
Thorndahl88
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The way he threw those knives (cringe)
Pretty sure she would use it to do the deed.
first of all, yall are morbid, but even bk were to croke i would certainly hope that his unicorn masamoto would be used as part of his gravestone, show some respect!!
of course after a year i would sweet talk his widow to sell it to me.
of course after a year i would sweet talk his widow to sell it to me.
i've used that miz honyaki in the video, it's gangsta arse knife, so much that it got me to order my own, and then got really sad cause it runs short and i had to get rid of it. it's in good hands now at least (anton)
YG420
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Lmao!
The price versus performance threads are always interesting, especially when trying to justify the price of an expensive knife. The fallacy is that performance gets limited to cutting ability. Does a $1000 knife cut three times better then a $300 one? Part of the problem is defining what makes a knife good at cutting? I'm not aware of any such definitions for kitchen knifes.
There is more to performance then the ability to cut. Sharpening, edge retention, grind, profile, fit and finish, handle. These features in the right combination become valuable, even more so when they are appear to be contradictions. A knife with hard steel that is easy to sharpen. A knife that cuts like a laser, doesn't have the food sticking problem, with the heft of a work horse.
An experienced user may find value in an expensive knife that meets their needs instead of collection of knives.
Jay
There is more to performance then the ability to cut. Sharpening, edge retention, grind, profile, fit and finish, handle. These features in the right combination become valuable, even more so when they are appear to be contradictions. A knife with hard steel that is easy to sharpen. A knife that cuts like a laser, doesn't have the food sticking problem, with the heft of a work horse.
An experienced user may find value in an expensive knife that meets their needs instead of collection of knives.
Jay
K813zra
Senior Member
Well, I guess there is always that. You CAN take it with you. :tease:
ThEoRy
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Man f*** those knives.
I love watching Salty's vids
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