When honyaki isn't honyaki (or is it?)

[chiffonodd]

Let me preface this by saying that I have zero experience with honyaki blades so feel free to school me accordingly.

First, the context: My understanding of honyaki has always been that it means that the blade is differentially tempered/hardened. Softer at the spine, harder at the edge. The hamon that you see on honyaki knives is a result of the differential tempering.

However, I have also seen some makers use the "honyaki" label to (apparently?) just mean monosteel. For example, the suisin inox honyaki is not a "honyaki" knife in the true sense of the word, no? I think they are just using honyaki to mean that the knife is not san mai.

Second, the question: I have recently come across a monosteel carbon blade (shirogami 1) that is described as "honyaki." The knife has no visible hamon that I can perceive. When I asked the retailer if the knife was "honyaki" in the sense that it was differentially hardened, or just as shorthand for monosteel, I received the following response: "This knife is oil-quenching. Full-steel quenching is categorized into water-quenching and oil-quenching. Water-quenching knives are very sharp but lack toughness compared to oil-quenching ones. A full-steel oil-quenching knife strikes a great balance between flexibility and toughness while maintaining a high level of sharpness!"

Help me decipher that response. What does it indicate as far as whether this knife is "real" honyaki as opposed to how the term is used in the context of the suisin inox honyaki? The dude says it's oil quenched, so, it is abura honyaki (as opposed to mizu honyaki)? Does lack of visible hamon mean that there is something less "legit" about the honyaki-ness of this knife? Or is hamon not a necessary aspect of honyaki? Alternatively, could it have a hamon and just not be visible because of the way that the knife is finished?

 

[PPIIBBSS]

Following this thread. This is a fantastic discussion topic! I wish I had the answers haha

 

[azn_knives_4l]

Wiki seems to think differential hardening is part of the definition but, most obviously, it's also used to refer to monosteel Words are just words, huh

 

[Vertigo]

Honyaki means monosteel now? So I can go down to Target and pick up a Rachael Ray 3-piece honyaki set for $50?! Holy ****!

 

[1dog]

Second, the question: I have recently come across a monosteel carbon blade (shirogami 1) that is described as "honyaki." The knife has no visible hamon that I can perceive. When I asked the retailer if the knife was "honyaki" in the sense that it was differentially hardened, or just as shorthand for monosteel, I received the following response: "This knife is oil-quenching. Full-steel quenching is categorized into water-quenching and oil-quenching. Water-quenching knives are very sharp but lack toughness compared to oil-quenching ones. A full-steel oil-quenching knife strikes a great balance between flexibility and toughness while maintaining a high level of sharpness!"

Help me decipher that response. What does it indicate as far as whether this knife is "real" honyaki as opposed to how the term is used in the context of the suisin inox honyaki? The dude says it's oil quenched, so, it is abura honyaki (as opposed to mizu honyaki)? Does lack of visible hamon mean that there is something less "legit" about the honyaki-ness of this knife? Or is hamon not a necessary aspect of honyaki? Alternatively, could it have a hamon and just not be visible because of the way that the knife is finished?

What does it indicate as far as whether this knife is "real" honyaki as opposed to how the term is used in the context of the suisin inox honyaki? The dude says it's oil quenched, so, it is abura honyaki (as opposed to mizu honyaki)? assuming the retailer is trustworthy and wouldnt be trying to mislead you, yes it's abura, or oil quenched

Does lack of visible hamon mean that there is something less "legit" about the honyaki-ness of this knife? Or is hamon not a necessary aspect of honyaki? Alternatively, could it have a hamon and just not be visible because of the way that the knife is finished? the lack of visible hamon doesn't mean it wasn't oil/water quenched. take a look at this msicard honyaki for example https://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/threads/msicard-cutlery-185mm-26c3-gyuto.71711/ i think (and im not an expert on any facet of kitchen knives outside of purchasing them) how 'visible' it is is more based on finishing and etching, though im sure there's much more nuance involved than just that. im sure some of the more experienced makers/polishers out there could expand on it more.

as for abura vs mizu honyaki im not sure but i seem to recall there being a thread here in the past that mentioned some differences between the two, just dont have the time to go hunting for it atm.

 

[MowgFace]

As long as I have been around Honyaki meant they were differentially heat treated.

BUT.

As far as I am aware, there is no standard of how much or where the hamon needs to be located. JNS released some Kaeru Honyakis that were Bandy as hell, but the Hamon was a diagonal line, almost like a welded tang. Or the Hiromoto Western Honyakis that recently resurfaced. Barely any soft steel other than the Kanji on that one.

There are "Honyaki" knives marketed all over the place.

Lastly, depending on the knife's finish the hamon just may not be visible.

 

[jedy617]

Let me preface this by saying that I have zero experience with honyaki blades so feel free to school me accordingly.

First, the context: My understanding of honyaki has always been that it means that the blade is differentially tempered/hardened. Softer at the spine, harder at the edge. The hamon that you see on honyaki knives is a result of the differential tempering.

However, I have also seen some makers use the "honyaki" label to (apparently?) just mean monosteel. For example, the suisin inox honyaki is not a "honyaki" knife in the true sense of the word, no? I think they are just using honyaki to mean that the knife is not san mai.

Second, the question: I have recently come across a monosteel carbon blade (shirogami 1) that is described as "honyaki." The knife has no visible hamon that I can perceive. When I asked the retailer if the knife was "honyaki" in the sense that it was differentially hardened, or just as shorthand for monosteel, I received the following response: "This knife is oil-quenching. Full-steel quenching is categorized into water-quenching and oil-quenching. Water-quenching knives are very sharp but lack toughness compared to oil-quenching ones. A full-steel oil-quenching knife strikes a great balance between flexibility and toughness while maintaining a high level of sharpness!"

Help me decipher that response. What does it indicate as far as whether this knife is "real" honyaki as opposed to how the term is used in the context of the suisin inox honyaki? The dude says it's oil quenched, so, it is abura honyaki (as opposed to mizu honyaki)? Does lack of visible hamon mean that there is something less "legit" about the honyaki-ness of this knife? Or is hamon not a necessary aspect of honyaki? Alternatively, could it have a hamon and just not be visible because of the way that the knife is finished?

Stuff like the suisin inox honyaki is just using the term for marketing. The correct term for monosteel which is not differentially heat treated is called zenko. Sounds like the retailer is just describing a regular monosteel knife which was oil quenched. No hamon=no honyaki, to me at least, and the knife in question probably has the same hardness throughout which in my opinion also disqualifies it. The hamon shows different structures in the steel (pearlite?).

I was going to say you need to clay the blade to make a hamon, but I remember seeing/hearing about "auto hamons" and other traditionally forged knives which have a temper line without clay. Not exactly sure how that is achieved though.

 

[chiffonodd]

Sounds like the retailer is just describing a regular monosteel knife which was oil quenched. No hamon=no honyaki, to me at least, and the knife in question probably has the same hardness throughout which in my opinion also disqualifies it.

In other words, quenching alone, whether oil or water, is not sufficient to earn the honyaki designation, and the knife at issue is just an oil quenched zenko (monosteel) blade?

How would that differentiate it from any run of the mill, stamped, mass produced, monosteel carbon knife? Are there such knives that aren't even "quenched"?

 

[azn_knives_4l]

Honyaki means monosteel now? So I can go down to Target and pick up a Rachael Ray 3-piece honyaki set for $50?! Holy ****!

Some of the larger Chinese manufacturers do exactly this

 

[jedy617]

In other words, quenching alone, whether oil or water, is not sufficient to earn the honyaki designation, and the knife at issue is just an oil quenched zenko (monosteel) blade?

How would that differentiate it from any run of the mill, stamped, mass produced, monosteel carbon knife? Are there such knives that aren't even "quenched"?

I am in no means of an expert in this department, but I believe there are 3 types of steels, oil hardening, water hardening, and air hardening. I believe all stainless are air hardening which is why there aren't stainless honyaki. I think all the simple carbons used in japan are oil or water hardening which means they will all be quenched. There is no differentiating there btw.

 

[azn_knives_4l]

In other words, quenching alone, whether oil or water, is not sufficient to earn the honyaki designation, and the knife at issue is just an oil quenched zenko (monosteel) blade?

How would that differentiate it from any run of the mill, stamped, mass produced, monosteel carbon knife? Are there such knives that aren't even "quenched"?

Any air-hardening tool steel fits, yeh. Sometimes this is done with cold aluminum plates, too, but still air.

 

[jedy617]

This is what you want to read: https://knifesteelnerds.com/2020/12/21/steel-properties-that-knifemakers-care-about-and-users-dont/

"
Hardenability is a measure of how fast steel needs to be quenched from high temperature to achieve full hardness. Read about hardenability in this article. Knife steels can be broadly categorized as “water hardening,” “oil hardening,” or “air hardening.” Water hardening steels require the fastest quench rate to harden and can sometimes be difficult to get to harden at all. Water is a very aggressive quench medium, and can lead to cracking of the knife during quenching. Because of this, knifemakers often use a “fast oil” to quench water hardening steels. This can make it more difficult to fully harden the knife but is considered to be preferred to a broken knife. On the plus side, knives with a “hamon” use the low hardenability of water hardening steels to make an interesting transition line between the edge of the knife that hardened and the spine that did not. Usually this is performed by using clay on the knife and partially grinding the knife, leaving a thin cross section at the edge and a thick spine. With the clay and the thick spine, the spine cools more slowly and does not achieve hard martensite, leading to a visible transition that can be brought out with etching. Common steels for a hamon include 1095, W2, White #1, and 26C3. The high carbon and low Mn and Cr give the steels low hardenability.

Oil hardening steels can be quenched more slowly. Oils come in different speeds, such as fast, medium, or normal oil and the slower the oil the less likely warping or cracking of the knife are. Oil hardening steels also come in different ranges of hardenability, so the type of oil can be tailored to the steel in question, up to some cross-section thickness where a faster oil would be necessary. Some steels I classify as “fast oil” steels such as 52100, 1080, and 80CrV2, and other steels work well with slower oils like O1 and 5160. Fast oils will not ruin a steel with higher hardenability, but those steels can use the slower oil to avoid issues.

Air hardening steels will fully harden even when left in still air after heating to high temperature (austenitizing). Most stainless steels and high alloy steels are air hardening. These include steels like CPM-3V, D2, M2, M4, 440C, 154CM, S30V, etc. Knifemakers often use a “plate quench” with air hardening steels, where the knife is clamped between two aluminum plates to accelerate cooling and to keep the knife flat. With this technique, in combination with the slower cooling rate compared to oil, air hardening steels can sometimes be easier to maintain flatness during heat treatment. Another important benefit to air hardening steels is they can be heat treated in large vacuum furnaces used by many commercial heat treaters. This allows large knife companies, or knifemakers that send out for heat treating, to use a wide range of heat treatment services and do not require heat treating companies that are set up for fast quench rates for oil hardening steels. And knife companies that do their own heat treatment with large furnaces can do large batches of knives and reduce heat treatment costs."



And furthermore, this about hardening: https://knifesteelnerds.com/2019/02/25/how-fast-do-you-have-to-quench-hardenability-of-steel/

 

[chiffonodd]

I am in no means of an expert in this department, but I believe there are 3 types of steels, oil hardening, water hardening, and air hardening. I believe all stainless are air hardening which is why there aren't stainless honyaki. I think all the carbons used in japan are oil or water hardening which means they will all be quenched. There is no differentiating there btw.

In other words all carbon knives must be quenched in either oil or water, and whether such a knife qualifies as honyaki depends further on whether it is differentially hardened?

 

[azn_knives_4l]

In other words all carbon knives must be quenched in either oil or water, and whether such a knife qualifies as honyaki depends further on whether it is differentially hardened?

Not quite. Many of the air-hardening tool steels lack the chromium to qualify as stainless.

 

[jedy617]

In other words all carbon knives must be quenched in either oil or water, and whether such a knife qualifies as honyaki depends further on whether it is differentially hardened?

Well it depends, there are "carbon steels" which are air hardening like D2 and 3v as you can see, but I believe all the simple carbon steels are oil or water quenched. And yes, it all leads back to differential hardening.

 

[azn_knives_4l]

Wow. Nice thread. So much knowledge and zero name-calling

 

[Vertigo]

Wow. Nice thread. So much knowledge and zero name-calling

Only a certified plopper would say something like that.

 

[chiffonodd]

Only a certified plopper would say something like that.

And we're back

 

[Just a DK]

I think steelport utilizes differentially hardened steel as well, but not sure if "honyaki" designation is appropriate for them as its not the process.

Honyaki seems to just be a certain process of making a knife, but a good honyaki knife would have its hamon prominently shown via various processes....

 

[kujaku]

In a conversation with sharpener Nomura, Genkai Masakuni stated, "White #3 and Blue steel can be hardened with both water quenching and oil quenching, but White #1 & #2 can only be water quenched."
Nakagawa said, "As far as I know, only Togashi, Ikeda, and Nakagawa can perform water quenching in Sakai, but there is one other person who claims to do water quenching (judging by his tone, he is probably using oil quenching). When it comes to Blue steel, if hamon is beautifully displayed, it is definitely oil quenched."

 

[chiffonodd]

So . . . everyone agrees that: (1) it's not honyaki if it's not differentially hardened, but (2) the hamon may or may not be visible depending on the finish?

 

[MSicardCutlery]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honyaki

 

[chiffonodd]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honyaki

Thanks, Matt. I read it before posting but I've also seen folks disagree with wikipedia not infrequently, so, here we are

 

[BillHanna]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honyaki

I should’ve just tagged you at the beginning when I wanted.

 

[jedy617]

In a conversation with sharpener Nomura, Genkai Masakuni stated, "White #3 and Blue steel can be hardened with both water quenching and oil quenching, but White #1 & #2 can only be water quenched."
Nakagawa said, "As far as I know, only Togashi, Ikeda, and Nakagawa can perform water quenching in Sakai, but there is one other person who claims to do water quenching (judging by his tone, he is probably using oil quenching). When it comes to Blue steel, if hamon is beautifully displayed, it is definitely oil quenched."

I heard (maybe from Jon from JKI on here?) that is a common myth. All of the Hitachi steels used for honyaki can be oil or water quenched.

 

[kujaku]

I heard (maybe from Jon from JKI on here?) that is a common myth. All of the Hitachi steels used for honyaki can be oil or water quenched.

Ah, I'm sorry. I might have been mistaken. Genkai says that with White steel, hamon are difficult to produce unless water quenching is used. This doesn't mean that White 1 & 2 can only be quenched using water quenching, but rather that in order to produce hamon, water quenching might be necessary.
In Japanese, objects are often omitted, so such misunderstandings can easily occur

 

[MSicardCutlery]

Thanks, Matt. I read it before posting but I've also seen folks disagree with wikipedia not infrequently, so, here we are

Sometimes they do get it right though. I've looked at it myself a few times.

 

[daveb]

Honyaki means monosteel now? So I can go down to Target and pick up a Rachael Ray 3-piece honyaki set for $50?! Holy ****!

Just because you can, doesn't mean you should...

I've only heard of Suisin using the term this way for the IH line. I don't think they're trying to get anything over on anyone, they've been using it a long time. If there are others oh well, you can prob now get a Martha Stewart Honyaki Kiritisuke Double Bevel Yanagiba Stainless Carbon Chef Knife for less than 20 bucks...

 

[KasumiJLA]

Martha Stewart Honyaki Kiritisuke Double Bevel Yanagiba Stainless Carbon Chef Knife

 

[chiffonodd]

I've only heard of Suisin using the term this way for the IH line. I don't think they're trying to get anything over on anyone, they've been using it a long time

Yeah never meant to imply that Suisin was doing anything improper, I just pointing out Suisin as an example of different usages of "honyaki." The SIH has actually been on my knife bucket list for years, always wanted to try one.