When were Chef's Knives invented?

[cotedupy]

Can anybody tell me about the history and evolution of the Chef's Knife? When was the style that we would recognise today created?

I assume this is going to mean: When were Sabatier knives created? Sometime in the c.19th? With introduction of Russian Service? Brigades? Escoffier's probably got his finger in the pie somewhere I imagine...?

And what would kitchen knives have looked like before that?

 

[M1k3]

Escoffier was born in 1846. No clue where or when they were actually invented though.

 

[ThirdJewel]

According to Sharp by Josh Donald (Bernal Cutlery), Thiers production started in the 1300s 1200s.

 

[MarcelNL]

define 'chef'...I have a faint feeling knives were around long before chef's as such existed and it'll be hard to define one single shape as 'chef's knive', I rather expect chef's used whatever worked best for them and shapes slowly evolved.

Your question piqued my interest, I found this;

https://oishya.com/journal/knife-history-forging-methods/5th century AD

I reckon knife making in Europe goes back much further than the 1500 as well, suspect there is a huge gap due to the 'dark middle ages' but we probably need to look at Egyptian, Roman or probably even Byzantine history for metal knives but in the stone age knive like tools were made and used.

https://arnobernard.com/blogs/to-the-point/the-history-of-knife-making
https://www.brennanknives.com/blogs/news/the-history-of-knife-making
Learn More: The History of the Chef Knife has IMO the most plausible history of knives.

 

[Duukt]

Google university says the word "Chef" was coined in 1842 so the knife this dude picked up was the first chef's knife. As for the modern profile, no idea.

 

[blokey]

One way to look at it is through old paintings, this is by Anthony van Dyck who was around 16th century, so at least in Europe it is this old, and likely even older if we can find more paintings.

 

[rickbern]

One way to look at it is through old paintings, this is by Anthony van Dyck who was around 16th century, so at least in Europe it is this old, and likely even older if we can find more paintings.
View attachment 235425

That looks like a table knife, rather than a kitchen knife. A little googling points to a German guy named Peter Henkel in 1731, but what do I know?

https://knifeplatoon.com/history-of-kitchen-knife/
Also, I found this little tidbit revealing, shows the modern shape was not common in France after 1669 and presumably for some time after

"The transition of knives from military use to domestic cuts both ways. We can never forget the bloody origins of steel, even while peaceably chopping carrots and celery. The bloody history of the chef's knife is long and widespread.


For example, King Louis XIV passed a law in 1669 which stipulated that the tips of all table knives be blunted. One of his advisers had pointed out to him the connection between sharp kitchen knives and violence. To this day, this connection continues. A noted Scottish pathologist, quoted in The Scotsman, pointed out that, "All the statistics show that for the last 15 years, victims of stabbings, whether fatal or seriously injured, are caused by kitchen knives such as steak knives rather than knives bought specially for the purpose."

 

[Jovidah]

It really depends on how close to the current shape you want to define a chef knife. I guess stone cutting implements don't really count because they tend to be shaped differently, but as soon as metalworking is discovered it all goes pretty quickly from there. Though there are some differences between a knife intended for cooking and a knife intended for killing people, the technical obstacles are the same.

 

[MarcelNL]

700BC , already looking quite familiar

https://geheugen.delpher.nl/nl/geheugen/view?identifier=RMO01:000982
the problem I see is that there probably (?) is little descriptive literature about the dealing and whealing in ancient kitchens

 

[Jovidah]

Another issue with the archeological record is that it's likely that many of the more utilitarian blades were either used up or melted down at some point to turn into new knives. For most of human history they were considered boring tools; it's the double-edged daggers and swords that always got all the attention - even when they saw far less action.

 

[stringer]

That looks like a table knife, rather than a kitchen knife. A little googling points to a German guy named Peter Henkel in 1731, but what do I know?

https://knifeplatoon.com/history-of-kitchen-knife/
Also, I found this little tidbit revealing, shows the modern shape was not common in France after 1669 and presumably for some time after

"The transition of knives from military use to domestic cuts both ways. We can never forget the bloody origins of steel, even while peaceably chopping carrots and celery. The bloody history of the chef's knife is long and widespread.


For example, King Louis XIV passed a law in 1669 which stipulated that the tips of all table knives be blunted. One of his advisers had pointed out to him the connection between sharp kitchen knives and violence. To this day, this connection continues. A noted Scottish pathologist, quoted in The Scotsman, pointed out that, "All the statistics show that for the last 15 years, victims of stabbings, whether fatal or seriously injured, are caused by kitchen knives such as steak knives rather than knives bought specially for the purpose."

During medieval times in Europe people would all carry their own table knife for eating. It was small and pointy and you used it to cut your food and then lift it to your mouth via the tip. Laws like this one from King Louis is what led to the widespread adoption of the fork.

 

[Case_D]

The book Knives and Scabbards published by the Museum of London has some good info based on medieval finds in London. The section titled "The use of knives, shears, scissors, and scabbards" by de Neergaard says that most knives would have been suitable for preparing food, and there was not much specialization until the 14th century. That being said, it's hard to determine what the original profile of a knife would have been since an iron or early steel blade would have needed to be sharpened very frequently. de Neergaard also explains something to the same extent. But there are some examples of 14th century knives, even in their poor state, that are not so different to modern full tang kitchen knives - scales held with 3 pins and a bolster and a long, slim blade

 

[Noodle Soup]

The book Knives and Scabbards published by the Museum of London has some good info based on medieval finds in London. The section titled "The use of knives, shears, scissors, and scabbards" by de Neergaard says that most knives would have been suitable for preparing food, and there was not much specialization until the 14th century. That being said, it's hard to determine what the original profile of a knife would have been since an iron or early steel blade would have needed to be sharpened very frequently. de Neergaard also explains something to the same extent. But there are some examples of 14th century knives, even in their poor state, that are not so different to modern full tang kitchen knives - scales held with 3 pins and a bolster and a long, slim blade

A favorite book of mine.

 

[Case_D]

Here are some interesting pictures of knives I saw in museums last summer. The first is from the National Museum of Slovenia. The 3 in the center have very kitchen knife profiles but they call them "battle knives." Dated to 3rd-2nd Century BC
View attachment 20220605_114958.jpg

The next two pictures are from Aquileia, Italy. No idea of the dates on them but Aquileia was a major Roman city in ancient times.
View attachment 20220618_104657.jpg
View attachment 20220618_104844.jpg
I think these were all eating knives if not well-worn food prep knives.

 

[Keith Sinclair]

Here are some interesting pictures of knives I saw in museums last summer. The first is from the National Museum of Slovenia. The 3 in the center have very kitchen knife profiles but they call them "battle knives." Dated to 3rd-2nd Century BC
View attachment 236034

The next two pictures are from Aquileia, Italy. No idea of the dates on them but Aquileia was a major Roman city in ancient times.
View attachment 236035
View attachment 236036
I think these were all eating knives if not well-worn food prep knives.

Yep knives go way back. Following weapons development in iron age. Before just as flint was lashed to wood to make spears, seashells were lashed to wood sticks to make spoons. Chopsticks go back BC times in Asia. People carried smaller knives for protection and to cut food and eat with. Multi use tool. Louis IV of France banned sharp tip blades eating at court in late 1600's. Around this time modern type Cutlery & eating utensils evolved. Forks, spoons, blunt tip knives. Most poor people still ate with their hands. There are places where people still eat with hands.

Sharp carbon steel tipped blades used for cutting meat & produce go back to Roman times.

 

[Keith Sinclair]

Don't count the bronze age because wasn't until iron age that quality steel was being forged. Unless you found an iron meteorite.

If you go back to stone age one of the most used tools for longest period of time was the hand axe used for butchering game. I like fossils, meteorites, even over one million year old hand axe. They are plentiful because they survive well when exposed by rain or digging. Probably longest period of time of any tool. Fits in my hand perfect just as it did **** erectus who cooked meat over fire making easier to digest. Rich in proteins brain size began to increase.

Spear point is around 30,000 years old.

 

[cotedupy]

During medieval times in Europe people would all carry their own table knife for eating. It was small and pointy and you used it to cut your food and then lift it to your mouth via the tip. Laws like this one from King Louis is what led to the widespread adoption of the fork.

I was going to say exactly this. The adoption of the fork in France and England from Italy during the 16th and 17th centuries was peculiarly politicised and class-based. And probably had a significant bearing on the evolution and use of domestic knives in the west.

 

[cotedupy]

Don't count the bronze age because wasn't until iron age that quality steel was being forged. Unless you found an iron meteorite.

If you go back to stone age one of the most used tools for longest period of time was the hand axe used for butchering game. I like fossils, meteorites, even over one million year old hand axe. They are plentiful because they survive well when exposed by rain or digging. Probably longest period of time of any tool. Fits in my hand perfect just as it did **** erectus who cooked meat over fire making easier to digest. Rich in proteins brain size began to increase.

Spear point is around 30,000 years old.
View attachment 237298View attachment 237299View attachment 237297

Here are some others, found by my great-grandfather during exploration and mapping of cave systems.

Stone age axe:

Bronze age axe, and sword:

And also another interesting one (not discovered by my great-grandfather alas!), this is the world's oldest known whetstone, it's about 70,000 years old. At the time Australian Aboriginal peoples were by some margin the most advanced tool-making cultures on earth, no one else is known to have sharpened axes in this way until at least 20,000 years later.

 

[stringer]

Here are some others, found by my great-grandfather during exploration and mapping of caves systems.

Stone age axe:

View attachment 237982

Bronze age axe, and sword:

View attachment 237980

View attachment 237981


And also another interesting one (not discovered by my great-grandfather alas!), this is the world's oldest known whetstone, it's about 70,000 years old. At the time Australian Aboriginal peoples were by some margin the most advanced tool-making cultures on earth, no one else is known to have sharpened axes in this way until at least 20,000 years later.

View attachment 237986

I bet that bronze feels a bit gummy on the stones.

 

[cotedupy]

I bet that bronze feels a bit gummy on the stones.

Haha! Unsurprisingly I've never actually sharpened bronze. Though I might do at some point soon...

A couple of months ago I was at my folks' place, my father was planting stuff in the garden and sound something buried. 'Here do you want this?' he said, offering me a small but very heavy piece of black mud. 'What is it?' I asked. 'Why it's an ingot of course! You like buggering around with bits of metal don't you?'

I cleaned it up a while later, and it was as promised - an ingot. Unfortunately not gold I don't think, unless it's very low purity re-smelted. I think this is bronze.




And feck it - I work at a forge / knifemaker, so I might try making something from it. Maybe a kiridashi. Any idea how hard you can make bronze? Can you HT it? Or do I just bang into shape and grind away...?

 

[stringer]

Haha! Unsurprisingly I've never actually sharpened bronze. Though I might do at some point soon...

A couple of months ago I was at my folks' place, my father was planting stuff in the garden and sound something buried. 'Here do you want this?' he said, offering me a small but very heavy piece of black mud. 'What is it?' I asked. 'Why it's an ingot of course! You like buggering around with bits of metal don't you?'

I cleaned it up a while later, and it was as promised - an ingot. Unfortunately not gold I don't think, unless it's very low purity re-smelted. I think this is bronze.




And feck it - I work at a forge / knifemaker, so I might try making something from it. Maybe a kiridashi. Any idea how hard you can make bronze? Can you HT it? Or do I just bang into shape and grind away...?

I don't know. I assume you can make almost any metal take an edge. Just a question of if it will hold it. Egyptians were making razors out of bronze and copper alloys as far back as 1500BCE.

https://www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/545127

 

[cotedupy]

I assume you can make almost any metal take an edge.

The word 'almost' is doing some heavy lifting in that sentence J...

 

[sanmateo]

The 1898 Sears Roebuck Catalogue sold French Cooks' Knives in 6, 8, 10, 12, 14 and 16 inch lengths

They also sold 11 different types of butcher knives and three different bread knives (only one of them serrated).

Curious to me they have only these three listed as "kitchen knives"

can anyone suggest what the shoe knife and putty knife were used for in the turn-of-the-century American kitchen?

sears catalogue at archive.org, for those following along at home

 

[M1k3]

Unruly customers? Pastry? Spackle the hole in the wall from the unhinged alcoholic Chef?

 

[sanmateo]

Unruly customers? Pastry? Spackle the hole in the wall from the unhinged alcoholic Chef?

I realize now the putty knives were no doubt sold for use as spatulas.

The catalogue does not contain any metal spatulas, pancake flippers, or any such thing

 

[cotedupy]

I realize now the putty knives were no doubt sold for use as spatulas.

The catalogue does not contain any metal spatulas, pancake flippers, or any such thing

Yep - I think a putty knife is basically like a palette knife.

I’d never even heard of a ‘shoe knife’ before though. So god knows on that one!

 

[sanmateo]

Dexter Russell and Hyde still sell shoe knives. They're for cutting leather and rubber and evening up the mid-soles of shoes before resoling.

Why it would make a good kitchen knife I have no idea.

 

[esoo]

Modern putty knife. Used for plastering and spackling.

 

[JustAnotherJoe]

I cleaned it up a while later, and it was as promised - an ingot. Unfortunately not gold I don't think, unless it's very low purity re-smelted. I think this is bronze.

If you are interested in what it's made of I would suggest you take it to a scrap/metal recycler and ask if they have a XRF analyser they could shoot it with. Most scrapyards have one and it works damn well on bronze. The attached photo is an example of the one we have at work to give you an idea of what they are capable of.

Some bronze can be hardened via heatreat, most can be hardened by working it. It sounds like a really fun experiment. I wonder if sharpening one might involve hammering the edge like a European pattern sythe?

 

[bsfsu]

The "Chef" and "Restaurants" as we understand them in the western world, were created after the French revolution. Cooks opened premises for people to try food previously only for the upper echelon.

What was used before the revolution (REVOLUTION!!!!!!)? Maybe there's some old Zwilling Henkels (est 1731) catalogues with knife designs?