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Dan, I agree with you in every way about Jon's diamond stones except one, recommending these stones to a new sharpener.

I have the Jon's diamond stones, but the cut so aggressively that, Maggie will chew up her knives in short order. I don't think Jon would recommend them either. Maggie should consider a Gesshin two sided soaking stone maybe a 1/6K combo. That way she can learn how to hold the knife on the stones with much less cutting speed that a Diamond stone. Just my thoughts...
 
DanHumphrey said:
Re: stones, while I wouldn't tell you to drop the money right away, Jon's 1k/6k diamond stone set is the best sharpening money I've spent. They're so fast, and so flat, that that I get a better edge (because it's fast enough that there's less time to introduce a wobble or change angle) in less time, than with any synthetic stone I've tried, let alone natural. It's an "easy button" for sharpening in a way that nothing else I've found is. If I'm feeling fancy I'll use some others for deburring and a finisher (and I might even convince myself it gets a 1% better final edge, or maybe that's placebo), but if I had to use a small stone set, it would be those two and nothing else. They're simply outstanding.
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Thank you for the suggestion. I understand about decreasing the wobble by cutting faster. I tend to go full tilt at most things. I think those would be dangerous to any knives, even the hard to sharpen ones. I could make a wide blade narrower though.😂
 
Mucho Bocho said:
Dan, I agree with you in every way about Jon's diamond stones except one, recommending these stones to a new sharpener.

I have the Jon's diamond stones, but the cut so aggressively that, Maggie will chew up her knives in short order. I don't think Jon would recommend them either. Maggie should consider a Gesshin two sided soaking stone maybe a 1/6K combo. That way she can learn how to hold the knife on the stones with much less cutting speed that a Diamond stone. Just my thoughts...
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yeah... i usually dont recommend them to new sharpeners
 
In one of his videos about stones he was clear about starting w a medium grit. In the description, he said this is a nice start for beginners:
https://www.japaneseknifeimports.co...bo-stones/products/king-1000-6000-combo-stone


I was also looking at these to have a set with a larger range but it might not be necessary for a long time. I don't know the average duration of the learning curve to become above average but not a master.

https://www.japaneseknifeimports.co.../products/stone-set-splash-and-go-limited-run

https://www.japaneseknifeimports.co...s-and-combo-stones/products/gesshin-stone-set

And this:
https://www.japaneseknifeimports.co...g-accessories/products/stone-holder-with-base

Do I really need a strop set? Would I even be able to tell the difference at this point? I'm biased to get this at a later date.

Any opinions on the cost:benefit of these things?

Thanks,
Maggie
 
no, you dont need a strop kit... they can help improve edges, but are far from necessary.
 
Thanks. It seems not all carbon knives rust @ the same rate. I definitely don't want one that rusts in between strokes for sure. I was thinking it might increase my ability to find a shorter blade w the narrower width and a flatter blade if I considered some carbon knives. Suggestions on such a knife?
 
I tend to like the feedback of soakers, and it certainly felt better for beginning sharpening.
Strop kit not necessary, you can always use denim/newspaper/cardboard now as free options. I almost never feel the impulse to do loaded stropping.
You can be on the road to competent sharpening in a few hours if you find good tutorials (which you have done)

You don't necessarily want a too short (not tall) blade for an all rounder because the grind will thicken more quickly as you reach the spine
 
MaggieG said:
Thanks. It seems not all carbon knives rust @ the same rate. I definitely don't want one that rusts in between strokes for sure. I was thinking it might increase my ability to find a shorter blade w the narrower width and a flatter blade if I considered some carbon knives. Suggestions on such a knife?
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I've not had an issue with rust. Reactivity on a fresh blade, sure but just keep up with it. I do what Jon suggested to me, wipe the blade with a wet towel and then a dry towel between product change. In fact, the first few uses I do this after every few cuts until a patina sets in and then it is not usually an issue. Particularly with mono carbon and specifically white steel, which I do not find very reactive at all. Just use it at home a few times on a bag of onions or something and you are set.

Carbon suggestion, I still say Gesshin Ginga. Stainless, carbon it doesn't matter it is simply a great knife for the money.

As for stropping, I just do it on the stones.
 
@foody518, thickening on a short blade is a good point. Thanks.
 
MaggieG said:
Thanks. It seems not all carbon knives rust @ the same rate. I definitely don't want one that rusts in between strokes for sure. I was thinking it might increase my ability to find a shorter blade w the narrower width and a flatter blade if I considered some carbon knives. Suggestions on such a knife?
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To be clear, "reactivity" is different from "rust". What I got was orange discoloration, which is unsightly but not damaging. The impression I've gotten around here is Shigefusas, which are very highly-regarded, also have extremely reactive iron cladding. Rust does take longer than in between slices to form.

That said, I'd probably go elsewhere if I were you, it drove me up the dman wall despite taking care of the thing!
 
Maggie, if your still hanging around after 70 posts, you're going to get more than one knife anyway. Ask Captain. Get to what's is all about. A bad ass carbon cutter that might not be aesthetically what you'd envisioned but will open a door to a world you've only read about. Then the journey begins.
 
Mucho Bocho said:
Maggie, if your still hanging around after 70 posts, you're going to get more than one knife anyway. Ask Captain. Get to what's is all about. A bad ass carbon cutter that might not be aesthetically what you'd envisioned but will open a door to a world you've only read about. Then the journey begins.
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Then three months down the road she will find herself with 30 knives and 300 stones? Been there...:biggrin:
 
Earlier in the thread when I was focused on learning to sharpen, a couple inexpensive carbon knives were suggested. Reviews on one of the knives said it rusted so quickly, it was staining shallots or garlic and had to be dried in between strokes. But I understand now that some are worse than others and adding a carbon that doesn't do this to my stainless knives would broaden my range and experience. So that's why I'm a little crazy focused on how fast it rusts. I'm willing/ able to take reasonable care & time w my knives but every stroke is a deal breaker. Bottom line, I would like to add a carbon knife and need guidance on ones that aren't self-destructing. Another question later in the thread.
 
Yup, I see it coming😄 The right tool is worth it's price their price in dollars and storage space. No point in 10 knives, 6 unused requiring a second knife block. I was just looking at Kramers and Watanabes his morning. I knew this would happen, it always does😄 This is where I started:

https://shun.kaiusaltd.com/blog/shun-hikari-wins-2016-kitchen-knife-of-the-year

The idea of the two core metals wearing differently and apparently adding some toothiness to the blade attracted me. I've read somewhere about true Damascus is repeatedly layered, rolled, and ?forged together to do the same thing but better. So they would not be core metals surrounded by pretty cladding but an integral part of the blade? Is that correct? Thoughts on all this?
 
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MaggieG said:
Thanks. It seems not all carbon knives rust @ the same rate. I definitely don't want one that rusts in between strokes for sure.
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DanHumphrey said:
To be clear, "reactivity" is different from "rust".....

That said, I'd probably go elsewhere if I were you, it drove me up the dman wall despite taking care of the thing!
Click to expand...


Mucho Bocho said:
Maggie, if your still hanging around after 70 posts, you're going to get more than one knife anyway. Ask Captain. Get to what's is all about. A bad ass carbon cutter that might not be aesthetically what you'd envisioned but will open a door to a world you've only read about.
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M, One of these proffers good advice. But. Orange is the old black, not the new one. Luv ya Dennis.

K813zra said:
Then three months down the road she will find herself with 30 knives and 300 stones? Been there...:biggrin:
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Took me longer. 100 days?
 
MaggieG said:
Earlier in the thread when I was focused on learning to sharpen, a couple inexpensive carbon knives were suggested. Reviews on one of the knives said it rusted so quickly, it was staining shallots or garlic and had to be dried in between strokes. But I understand now that some are worse than others and adding a carbon that doesn't do this to my stainless knives would broaden my range and experience. So that's why I'm a little crazy focused on how fast it rusts. I'm willing/ able to take reasonable care & time w my knives but every stroke is a deal breaker. Bottom line, I would like to add a carbon knife and need guidance on ones that aren't self-destructing. Another question later in the thread.
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I would think what was being said earlier was that you will get orange or black discoloration between strokes on a knife fresh out of the box. I have had more than a few iron clad knives like this but it does not last long. Cook up some steak or chicken on the grill and slice it up first off and you will jump start your patina and help avoid this. Even some higher end knives come with very, very reactive iron cladding. That does not mean it is something you have to like or dislike, different strokes and all that.

That said, you are going to get discoloration from many knives before your patina forms. Take my Ginga in white #2 for example, no iron cladding and not overly reactive once a patina sets in and it does so quickly. However, the first thing I cut with it was garlic and it would drag purple goo through the cut. Red onions would show black discoloration and white onions would show orange discoloration. This is on the product being cut not the blade itself. That calmed down a lot after session one. After session 3/4 it saw no discoloration at all. Sure, it is still slightly reactive and the color of the patina will change but lightly. Something to keep in mind is that you will see this again to a lesser extent every time you sharpen but again, that will go away quickly. When you thin a blade and take away all of the patina it is like starting fresh and you will be back at square one. It is just part of owning carbon. Don't let that intimidate you but it is something to keep in mind as well.

Now you can heavily mitigate this by going with stainless clad carbon as only the very edge is reactive and will patina very quickly. There are semi stainless steels out there as well which offer a lot of advantages of both carbon and stainless while not really being either. Everything will have a trade off, it is just about finding which ones you are willing to put up with.

Overall I think the maintenance require of carbon knives is much lower than often made out to be. Yes it is there, no it isn't a nightmare and it is easily manageable at least from my perspective as a home cook. Maybe carbon is not for everyone and iron clad carbon even less so but I still feel it is blown out of proportion. Anyway, that is just my opinion.

I do think that having stuck around this long you will end up with at least one carbon knife at some point. :)
 
You can always just go stainless clad carbon to start out which is quite easy to manage. Ikazuchi from JKI would get ya a nice cutter at a good price point

As you're just starting out in this madness, I would suggest that the interactions between two possible folded steels in the core in a given knife makes less of a difference than everything else which may differ compared to other choices- handle heft, blade profile and height, grind/geometry, stainless vs carbon, HT, etc.
If you want another geeky topic to browse - Wootz Damascus :)
 
foody518 said:
You can always just go stainless clad carbon to start out which is quite easy to manage. Ikazuchi from JKI would get ya a nice cutter at a good price point

As you're just starting out in this madness, I would suggest that the interactions between two possible folded steels in the core in a given knife makes less of a difference than everything else which may differ compared to other choices- handle heft, blade profile and height, grind/geometry, stainless vs carbon, HT, etc.
If you want another geeky topic to browse - Wootz Damascus :)
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That's the spot I wound up at - my current daily cutter is the Sukenari AS. Wonderful patina on the exposed core (except on the sharpened bevel), stainless cladding to keep my OCD at bay. Part of my wants to get a Gesshin Ginga white monosteel from Jon, which would probably develop a nice patina all over instead of orange. But then I'm not sure it would actually gain me anything.

Maybe I should just sell my Dalman and do it; I'm not such a fan of AEB-L.
 
A few quick questions:
Why are some grits extremely more expensive than others? A 240 grit was more than double the cost of a 6000, same maker & size. Different seller but that was in line w usual variations in markups.

Is there any reason Camellia oil would be better than food grade mineral oil for knives/boards? Since it's organic like a cooking oil, wouldn't it turn rancid and sticky also?
 
MaggieG said:
Is there any reason Camellia oil would be better than food grade mineral oil for knives/boards? Since it's organic like a cooking oil, wouldn't it turn rancid and sticky also?
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Yet another reason for stainless:groucho:

FWIW I've a few carbon and have used the same food grade mineral oil I use on knife handles and cutting boards. But camella oil comes in a cool little atomizer dispenser.
 
MaggieG said:
A few quick questions:
Why are some grits extremely more expensive than others? A 240 grit was more than double the cost of a 6000, same maker & size. Different seller but that was in line w usual variations in markups.

Is there any reason Camellia oil would be better than food grade mineral oil for knives/boards? Since it's organic like a cooking oil, wouldn't it turn rancid and sticky also?
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To clarify:

Why are some grits extremely more expensive than others? A 240 grit was more than double the cost of a 6000, same maker & size.
Two stones w same grits, different mfgrs and sellers had price variations about what I'd expect in any market.
 
MaggieG said:
A few quick questions:
Why are some grits extremely more expensive than others? A 240 grit was more than double the cost of a 6000, same maker & size. Different seller but that was in line w usual variations in markups.

Is there any reason Camellia oil would be better than food grade mineral oil for knives/boards? Since it's organic like a cooking oil, wouldn't it turn rancid and sticky also?
Click to expand...

I do not have a clue as to why some stones cost more than others.

As for oil, I do not think that mineral oil will go rancid but I am no authority. But I would ask why you intend to use it on your blade. Unless I am storing my blades I find no need to oil them. Even then I just use rust inhibitor paper and have never had an issue. Maybe I just live in a forgiving climate. Or again, as I stated before, my environment is temp controlled so that might have something to do with it.

To add, even with oils that will go rancid I would not think it an issue if you use them regularly. An example would be, I spent a lot of years in Spain, as such I had a lot of carbon steel pans for cooking Paella and the like. These pans are quite susceptible to rust, more so than any knife I have ever owned. Anyway, I was taught to use olive oil and I thought that would be an issue because it goes rancid, however if it is an object you use often enough it never has that chance because you are removing the oil and applying new frequently. Not that I would put it on my board or anything that actually sucks up the oil.
 
Were the dimensions of those stones the same? I wouldn't be surprised if that 240 was a bigger brick than the 6k

Edit - read your post more carefully. Sometimes same maker has different level lines. Do you have a link?
 
foody518 said:
.....As you're just starting out in this madness, I would suggest that the interactions between two possible folded steels in the core in a given knife makes less of a difference than everything else which may differ compared to other choices- handle heft, blade profile and height, grind/geometry, stainless vs carbon, HT, etc.
If you want another geeky topic to browse - Wootz Damascus :)
Click to expand...

I did read the Wootz Damascus! Started looking up a term on Wiki and kept clicking links all the way down the rabbit hole. It always happens w Wiki and somehow always ends up in physics. I regret not taking that and typing in high school.😄
 
So, this SKD11 is reputed to be fine grained with excellent edge retention and easy to sharpen-if PROPERLY heat treated. The importance of the skill in HT has been mentioned before here and in Wiki since the temp and method affect at least the grain size.
So. How does one know/find out which makers are good at HT, other than custom knives of course? I have 22 tabs open trying to find a trustworthy site that names names. Except for a few sites, based on referrals here, I have a bias against seller's statements.
 
MaggieG said:
I did read the Wootz Damascus! Started looking up a term on Wiki and kept clicking links all the way down the rabbit hole. It always happens w Wiki and somehow always ends up in physics. I regret not taking that and typing in high school.😄
Click to expand...

Typing? That was my bugaboo, that and penmanship. I had teachers (right about 1990) who insisted that beautiful penmanship was essential to a good job. Then it was a matter of no-look typing speed as if my best career was to be in the typing pool. I know fantastic developers who hunt and peck and make twice as much as I do, or more...

But physics, that would have been great! I should have done chemical engineering, which would also be relevant to knives! My college friend did chemical engineering and has literally worked for (the parent company of, but actually worked on) Trojan, and now works for Hershey. Sounds a lot more fun than my career...
 
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