Who collects antique Japanese swords?

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Corradobrit1

Corradobrit1

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Given that most of use here are into JKnives it got me wondering if people have expanded their collection to include maybe one or two or more antique swords. Many of the current kitchen knife makers expouse their sword making ancestry eg TF, Kiyoshi Kato, Mizuno etc.
I lusted after a katana way before I knew what a gyuto was. Now that my JKnife collection has pretty much peaked I'm looking to scratch that itch I've had for so long. Probably just a good quality katana and a wakazashi from the same swordmith or time period.
Just curious if others have the same interest.
 
Interest, yes, but ownership, no. A close friend has been active in the JSSUS for decades so I get to live vicariously without the investment. The Chicago show, one of the larger US shows, is coming up on April 24th to 26th ( http://www.chicagoswordshow.com/ ). There are also large shows in Orlando and San Francisco in the summer. From what little I know this is a far deeper hole than kitchen knives and you have to know considerably more to spend money wisely.
 
I have a strong-ish interest but can’t afford it. I have lots of books and half hearted study them. I do have a mumei wakizashi most likely late 18th century but it need a polish and isn’t worth the money. I did have a run in with an ex girlfriends fathers sword that sort of got me into the whole Nihonto thing. Long story short, he brought it back from Japan at the end of the war and it sat in the basement until he told me he had an old Japanese sword. In the end after a LOT of research it turned out to be a Nedi Fujiwara Masahiro (Hizan) Wakizashi from around 1670 give or take 10 years and if polished and papered (I was assured buy Hizan nihonto collectors it was legit and would paper tokobetsu).. and should bring 12-15k. I tried to get him to send it to Japan and get it polished and papered but he was sure it would never return from Japan. So it left my ‘possession’ with my ex... it’s how in some ways I became interested in Japanese knives, at least you can use and touch them...lol.

If you haven’t figured out already the Nihonto world is SUPER esoteric and makes all the knife nitpicking and anal retentiveness here look like child’s play. Its like kindergarten here and Nihonto like MIT. It’s a big money game and there is a real elitist snobbery that goes with it. If you have a lot of money, revel in studying in the minutia In orders of magnitude more intense than anyone does here, can handle the elitism and have family that won’t think you are insane or at least can deal with it… You’ll have lots of fun!

its a bit like learning a language. The more you know the more you realize you don’t know. To get on the other end of that curve takes years and years of hard dedicated study.
 
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@Newbflat has it right from what I know. One caveat, if you have a sword that you believe might be valuable and a candidate for getting papered do not send it to a Western polisher and don't even think about a DIY polish job. There is Japanese nationalist snobbery at play but they will return your sword. The only caveat might be a National Treasure sword but your chances of stumbling on one of the known "missing" swords in far less than being struck by lightening at this date. Even in that off chance you would be compensated. Westerners send swords to Japan for papers and/or polish with some regularity.
 
LostHighway is right. There are quite a few swords here as war trophies and are sent over regularly for a polish and paper. If the sword is of any value or of potential value, do not use any American polishers. If it’s like mine a generic lowish but ok quality sword that will never paper as anything special and if polished in Japan would be worth less than the polish, it’s a good candidate for an American polish. Never ever try to do it yourself, you will ruin it. And never ever clean the Nakago (tang). A good Japanese polish is about $100 an inch. It can go up or down a little depending on a lot of things but that a good start. Then there is papering costs, broker fees, having a shirasaya made... so at least $3000+ for an average Katana.​
 
Yes, I've read a few threads on the Nihonto boards, and agree with all you say. Its not something I want to get into to the same degree as JKnives but want a piece I can display and enjoy for its artistry and history. Banding is out the wazoo, not to mention the crazy Hamon on some of this fine pieces. Puts even a Ashi Honyaki to shame.
I'm looking to spend $5-7K on a papered NBTHK Tokubetsu Hozon level blade with good polish, plus all the period correct fittings. Seems there are plenty available out there from reliable vendors with guarantees against hagire. The ones I like have been from the peaceful Early Edo period, say 1600-165o.
 
My suggestions is before you buy do read a LOT and buy some books. It will help keep you out of trouble. A little un focused knowledge in this game can get you into trouble. The best pice of advice I was given was to read about everything for a year and then find a line that speaks to you (smith or tradition line) and really really study it. Only then can you really see how the other lines differ. If you just keep scratching the surface of all the lines you will never truly see how any differ other than the big picture. It also helps you focus on what you really want, know what you are looking for and feel a true connection to the pice you eventually buy. It will also give you some credit in the community. People who just come in and buy a nice Daishō set as a cool thing to have are frowned upon. You are expected to have ‘done your research’ and know about what you have in detail. That means history, line, school and smith attributes and be able to identify them .... otherwise you are just a poacher from the people who should have that nice Daishō .. (not my feeling, just my take). definitely find a school you like and then a smith or representative line from that school and find a mentor. Not only will it help you understand your desires better but will connect you with people selling that are not on the big web sights. They will be cheaper and sometimes better as it’s not one sword from the desired smith on a website but possibly lots to chose from. Another reason to study is to find what you might like. If you like swords with more curve then the mid 1600’s is a tough time as during the Kanbun era swords tended quite being straight (generalized) , but there are schools like Hizen that maintained there lovely deep sori (curve of the blade) during this era.

I would be surprised if you can find a Tokubetsu papered blade for that little. Definitely not with matching papered Koshirae. Maybe average koshirae, but it’s been a while and things have softened I suspect, I could well be wrong...

Do read up and have a glossary handy as no one will take you seriously if you don’t use the right terms. Like ‘banding” you mentioned is called Hada and is the structure of the folded steel and not alloy banding and part of identifying lines and even individual smiths. Snotty people on some forums won’t give you the time of day if you done use the right nomenclature.

I always like this sight for descriptions and pictures, I suspect you are familiar.

https://www.aoijapan.com/
 
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On a side note, if you want to revel in the profound complexity’s and beauty of Japanese swords and specifically Tsubas watch this.. Ford Hallam is a true master metal worker and recognized as such in Japan as well. This is a stunningly beautiful two part vid of recreating one missing Tsuba from a Daishō set. It never ceases to utterly blow me away with the level of craftsmanship ... truly stunning. Watch on a big scan of posable. At least not a phone.



 
I've actually done some training with a katana, but don't think that you can go to your local samuri school and think they are actually going to use that thing anything like a fighter would, lot's of stupid silly bull**** out there as in most oriental marshal arts.

Aside from that the katana isn't really a great weapon, and in battle the spear or pike was vastly more popular. I do like it though for upper body training, more so than any other hand weapon. You can't block with or hit anything hard with any part of the edge of the blade, as the movies invariably take absurd license with (idiotic to think otherwise), though this does make it very interesting to fool around with.

Have no use personally for antiques, or modern true reproductions, $100 buys you a dimensionally and structurally fairly adequate representation of the real thing adequate for some vigorous twirling around. That being said, back in the 80's I "almost" had a chance to buy a decent pedigree Katana, just shy of the the time the Japanese government decided they wanted to start buying back heirlooms taken during WWII. Overnight the price went from $750 to through the roof. Last I heard just a good sharpening and polishing will run you $3,000+. Can't speculate on the investment value now, very early 80's was most definitely a time to buy though.
 
Just to clear something up. There has never been a Japanese program to buy back swords. There has been voluntary repatriation of swords that can be identified with families, mostly threw information on confiscation tags but those tags are of often incomplete for the purpose. There has been a few, very few culturally significant swords that have been purchased by japan but you can count them on one hand. There is a LOT of myth and legend surrounding Japanese swords.

I also practiced Battōjutsu for a time. There a lot of Japanese sword based martial arts and none of them are oriented too actually using them for practical defense. There are a few like forms of Battōjutsu that are more combat focused and other like iaido that are more like a meditation analogous to Tai Chi. You can always take up kendo if you want to hit people with sticks/swords.

Carful with those cheep swords, the brake all too often and definitely don’t practice tameshigiri with them. You can get traditionally made or at least well made swords specifically designed for cutting tatami.
 
OK, could have been a consortium of Japanese business types, anyway they were buying up swords like crazy back in the early 80's.

I had been using a sword that sells these days for $50 on ebay, soft stainless, no distill taper. It held up well for years, but lately the wrapping loosened enough to bunch up at the butt, the one-piece composite handle rattles (yes, potentially dangerous) and the soft stainless fatigued to the point where the sword takes and holds a bend if you apply any sideways force. The $100 sword is "allegedly" tempered 1090 (unlikely), but don't feel the need right now to cut tatami, don't practice with anybody near, I believe the $100 sword will do for now. Important note: swords fixed with the traditional bamboo peg do need to be refitted at reasonable intervals. I know of at least one incident where someone was killed at a demo when the peg broke and the instructor's sword went flying out of the handle. I don't think the cheap swords use a bamboo peg, +1 there.
 
In a nutshell...

Get this for how they are made. This is a great book in general and applies to knives to some degree as well:
https://www.amazon.com/Craft-Japane...&linkCode=w00&linkId=&creativeASIN=087011798X

This for a closer look at various swords but you can also start here if you already know about forging, polishing and saya making:

https://www.amazon.com/Japanese-Swo...&linkCode=w00&linkId=&creativeASIN=0870115626

Get this If you like all that above and you are still interested in study:

https://www.amazon.com/Facts-Fundam...7SR3JV8CTGW&psc=1&refRID=2EV7BJQV37SR3JV8CTGW

This is a must if you really want to learn about schools and lines and how to identify them. Luckily it’s now waaaay cheaper than it use to be. Very dry reading but a true textbook and the best for beginning serious study:

https://www.amazon.com/Connoisseurs...&linkCode=w00&linkId=&creativeASIN=4770020716


I haven’t really studied much in some years and I notice there are a lot more books out now. Best to go onto Nihonto message boards and see what’s new and good, but these are classics.
 
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