Why carbon, if there are stainless steels like CPM154 and AEB-L?

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Don Nguyen

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Stainless steels have gotten really good lately. CPM154 and AEB-L both can get to high hardness values and have very small grains. I haven't really heard a single bad thing about these steels if they were heat treated well. I'm sure in the future there will be more stainless options available with really great properties.

What reasons then would we still need carbon steels for? Is there still something that carbon offers over stainless performance wise? I know aesthetically we like them for various reasons, but I'm curious about how they actually behave side to side.
 
The only real reasons I can think of are 1) - That cheap carbon is better than cheap stainless, and that 2) carbon is slightly easier to sharpen I would say.

I don't think there are any performance advantages. The romance/tradition of carbon is a strong draw for some, personally, as a home cook I don't like very reactive knives - although i'll accept that most of these are iron-clad beasts - monosteel carbons are generally much better.
 
Ive owned several AEBl knives that were supposedly "heat treat treated well" and i can say they arent replacing my nice carbon anytime soon.
 
As long a these heat treatment is done well, and clearly several makers are making perfect examples of these; CPM154, AEB-L, etc are starting to replace my carbons; in my amateur hands it's hard if not impossible to find performance difference from top makers using these. I like that these new steels are being pushed and experimented with with some amazing results challenging traditional carbons.

That being said, I do LOVE my carbons, we've just grown to really like each other.


And... my girlfriend certainly appreciates that these "don't smell funny"...
 
Wow, I expected much more backlash against the premise of this thread.

Personally I prefer stainless over carbon, especially since I am not the only one that uses them in my kitchen. I have done a couple carbon, and maybe a bit easier on the stones on average, but not much, and I have some wonderfully performing stainless knives in regards to sharpness and edge retention.
 
I think statements like "the heat treatment is excellent/amazing/top-notch" are thrown around way too often. Frankly, if you're not a maker/smith/metallurgist you are just not in a position to comment. Anyone can of course have an opinion regarding the general performance of a knife, but that shouldn't be confused with a knowledge of heat treating.
 
labor of love said:
Ive owned several AEBl knives that were supposedly "heat treat treated well" and i can say they arent replacing my nice carbon anytime soon.
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What he said. Not naming names, but I've got some highly-regarded AEB-L knives that will neither take nor hold an edge like carbon will.
 
I prefer carbon for the feel. Stainless just doesn't give me that crisp, hard feedback. I also prefer carbon for patina.
 
Some carbon steels just get sharper and sharpen easier then SS....But it comes down to personal choice....I have owned and used almost every steel out there!!!.....I am using a SS blade or a SS clad carbon.....I have no desire to deal with the BS of a scrap metal clad knife these days:D
 
i was quoting don, hence the quotations. and yes i agree, i know nothing about heat treat process so i cant speak of it directly. but i trust the people here who do understand good heat treats, and i know that several aebl knives i have used with definitive good heat treat by the maker, yet still there was something left to be desired.
 
labor of love said:
i was quoting don, hence the quotations. and yes i agree, i know nothing about heat treat process so i cant speak of it directly. but i trust the people here who do understand good heat treats, and i know that several aebl knives i have used with definitive good heat treat by the maker, yet still there was something left to be desired.
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Apologies if that came across as a dig at you labor, it was in no way supposed to be. It just irks me that it pops up all the time.

Like you, I trust those who know.
 
i told myself i would never go carbon due to the maintenance requirements. yet i have migrated to mostly all carbons now, mo sharp mo easy to sharpen.
of all the stainless, ginsanko would be my favorite, it behaves very similar to carbon.
 
I'm not sure why, but I'm able to put a sharper edge on my Semi stainless Heiji than I can on my White #2 Yusuke. I find it weird.
 
I think the poster who said money said it right, excluding emotions, it is $$ and so when the $$ are the same and the maker is a master of his craft, modern stainless and semi stainless are just as good as carbon. I love my shig but when my turn comes to get my Marko in stainless, I'm sure it will be just as good (if not better).

Another case in point: I posted a question a while ago about getting my Devin ITK in AEB-L or 52100 and the consensus was get the AEB-L, the consensus of the experts here was there just isn't any advantage if Devin is doing the heat treatment to 52100 over his AEB-L and the AEB-L may even be better. But that is Devin who is the master of AEB-L.

However on the really really low end, and if one allows used knives from the bay, there doesn't seem to be much a question to me that an old foregcraft is the best knife you can buy if you are willing to clean it up if necessary. I don't believe you can buy any knife that outperforms a used forgie bought for say under $40

For example, suppose I was recommending a beginning knife to a serious but poor person with an under $50 budget: I could recommend a Forschner or I could recommend a used carbon Forgecraft on the bay. the prices seem roughly comparable. In my opinion a used Forgecraft sharpens more easily, sharpens "sharper" and has a better geometry.
 
Posting as someone who is a full time maker, I know I don't have the experience that Devin does with AEBL, but I have been working with it for several years now and it has become one of my favorite steels. Now I am a stubborn cuss when it comes to steel, I don't adopt new ones very easily. To me the steels I use are like part of my family. I do believe that I do an excellent job on the heat treat of AEBL. Having said that I have almost 20 years of working with O-1 and I know it well. With the heat treatment I use, it is an excellent knife steel, and as good as AEBL is the O-1 is still better, has a finer, longer lasting edge. I can't compare it to some of the other steels out there other than by comparing the composition of the steels, which can tell you a lot, but O-1 is my favorite, and even with small batch smelting becoming easier, making dream alloys possible, I will still stick with O-1.
Del
 
I like carbon and am happy others do too because stainless is not very conducive to forging, and that is how I prefer to make a knife. Before really getting a handle on sharpening, I was able to sharpen carbon much better than stainless. Now it is not such a big difference, especially using diamond stones.
 
gic said:
I think the poster who said money said it right, excluding emotions, it is $$ and so when the $$ are the same and the maker is a master of his craft, modern stainless and semi stainless are just as good as carbon. I love my shig but when my turn comes to get my Marko in stainless, I'm sure it will be just as good (if not better).
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as far as $$ is concerned, would it be fair to assume the performance of aebl steel in the dt itk to be on par with the performance of a dt custom?
 
For around 80.00 a Fujiwara Stainless is quite a bit better than a Forschner for a little more coin. A rosewood handle 10" Forschner is around 50.00 now.

For most people reccom. a carbon doesn't work.They can't even take care of a stainless knife.I can't believe I am saying this but for home users a quality stainless is a good option.Now that I am retired more stainless is migrating to my Mag Bloc.The latest a 240 Gesshin Ginga.I even have a stainless cleaver now that I like,but these blades are not cheap.

Most stainless that the masses use is crap,lowest common denominator steel.It dents instead of chips,hard to sharpen,losy edge holding.

But cutting all day in the workforce carbon shines,where a sharp edge & ease of sharpening is very important.I know I sound like a broken record,but carbon does best when it is used alot hours a day.If it is not being used you had better oil it.
 
Keith is right: even fibrox Forschners have gone up in price a lot, if you shopped around they used to be around $30 for a 10" chef, now they are $40 (and $50 if you don't shop around). I guess the Swiss franc is just crazy nowadays.

Interestingly enough I paid $22 on a lightning sale from Amazon for some 8" fibrox I gifted last Christmas, it's now 36.59!
 
El Pescador said:
Nope. DT customizes the heat treat to the user.
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thanks. at this point i would have to say that what takeda does with AS steel pretty awesome. the 2 times ive used takedas has left a quite a lasting impression on me. the characteristics of that steel couldnt be matched by anything stainless, atleast from my experience. of all the knives ive tried, i think takeda steel is my favorite, if were speaking only about steel performance alone, and not considering other knife characteristics. the niolox stuff tilman uses takes as steep an edge as anything ive ever used stainless or carbon. i cant wait til my custom tilman is complete.
 
Just keep in mind guys, stainless steel is 100 years old this year. Way to go Harry Brearley.
Just for fun,
Del
 
Yep,but it wasn't until 1951 Emerson Case, president of Robeson Cutlery with help figured out Frozen Heat process,Heat,Freeze,and temper by reheating again,that quality stainless emerged.
 
As a novice knife sharpener I can tell you this, I have five or six carbon steel knives and five or six stainless. By far the sharpest knives I've got are the carbon. I have white #1 or #2 Santoku that is scary sharp, with the rest in the following order, a forgecraft slicer, Case XX forged 8 inch Chef, an ol'hickory six inch chef, and Sabatier 10 inch chef.

I do have a newer custom in 01 carbon that I find hard to put an edge on, so it will be my last knife in 01 carbon unless someone convinces me otherwise.

I have a Shun Kramer 10 inch chef in their stainless that takes an edge well, of course everybody gives Shun a bad rap for chipping etc, but I have dropped that knife on a linoleum covered concrete floor and watched it bounce 2 or 3 times with no damage to it, so go figure.

I have a new custom in CPM154 and I find it the most difficult to sharpen. Of course it's not as bad as 25 year old Seki stainless steel cooking set my girlfriend received as a wedding gift that has to be the toughest stainless I have ever seen. That stainless reminds more of the tool steel norinco was using in Colt 1911 knockoffs when they first imported them to the US.

Again, as a novice sharpener, I would rather have a knife that was easy to put an edge on but had little edge retention than a knife that was hard to put an edge on that had great edge retention. Does that make sense?
 
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