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Discussion in 'The Kitchen Knife' started by banjo1071, Jun 21, 2013.
In combat boots?
hmmmm...curious why you feel these are mutually exclusive....
It's plausible that you're normal and there's 10 crazy arguments
This is so good that I had to break out my new J-popcorn...I hear it's even better than the American stuff.
totally useless w/o jButter and jPop.Wait..didn't we already do this?
Isn't this where everyone talks about popcorn? :groucho:
Frankly, I couldn't give a rat's ass where a good knife comes from, and I suspect most people here feel the same way. The fact is, all the knives everyone is arguing about can be traced back to Japan. Whether it's the name, handle, profile, geometry or steel. That's why KKF is "Japanocentric".
Can't wait to get my excellent Marko knife which is derivative of Shigafusa, DT and Kramer who make Japanese style knives.
this, again, is a matter of personal preference. This is what US knife makers have decided is a good test, but thats is. I'm not saying this produces bad knives, but i am saying its no where near covering the whole story.
I read every post in this thread and was starting to type a reply to it when I realized just how far we've gotten from the OP's question. That isn't a bad thing, but I'm going to try and respond to that bit.
"I noticed that this forum is very fokused on japanese cutlery or imitation/interpretation of it? I mean, there a so many wondeful knifmakers and fanastic knifecompanies all around the world that get no notice here. I mean not at all! Is there any specific reason? Is because people think japanese cutlery is superior op all other (thats what advertisment tells us, but i see hordes of japanes tourist buying loads and loads of swiss and german cutlery here in europe, so that hardly can be true).
Or is it that all the good stuff from France, Switzerland, Austria or Germany is rarly exported und our US-Friends just get the china-made factory stuff like Zwilling, "Messermeister" (completly unknown in Germany) and the such? And have all the right to diss these crappy blades.
Dont get me wrong: I love the eastern stuff too, the aesthetics and all. But over the years a i always came back to german super-thin high carbon knives as my goto-knives. And they just cost a fraction..."
You're right, most of the stuff we see in the U.S. from the countries you mention is just factory made stuff. Wusthof, Henckels, Zwilling, etc. We do have some UK and EU friends (Will C and Tilman come to mind), who make fantastic knives but are very similar to the custom US makers and even, to a degree, Japan knives. Are there people in Europe making a different style of knife that is cutting just as well? If so, please do a passaround and let us in on the info!
Really, most of the knives here are very similar, especially ones by custom makers. ~3mm at the heel, full distal taper, 240mm long, partial convex grind, thin behind the edge, 61-63 HRC, fairly flat profile heavily influenced by French knives, etc. What I've found in my admittedly incomplete sampling of cutlery is that the difference between a decent knife and a great knife isn't fundamental, it's a small difference in geometry or profile.
But isn't that because you mostly cater to a western market? You might deem knives made this way as being too hard, but that is only based on what you make for your market and customer base. It depends on the purpose of the knife and the needs of the person.
Well i have sharpened and re polished more knives from US then you think
While some are thinner behind the edge then Shigefusa, it dose not tell whole story. Usually edge is too flat and edge its self is sharpened to much higher eagle then any J knife
I can make huge angle on straight razor and it will not chip but it will still be thin ground
The thing is i dont care about asking ANY US maker as i dont like they knives that much yet. However i like most of Japanese thats why i ask them
maybe it will change in future i dont know and maybe many love that kind of knives, i see here on the forum some do.
But i will never say like you do that these knives is made wrong because i dont like it hahaha
I saw you pull the Kato pass around knife over concerns about the fat tip. So I thought there is no way if I buy one it would look like that. Wrong. Three hours on the stones so I could cut an onion as well as the $30 house knives at work. Chippy but after hours of work on the stones a nice knife. Most expensive grind your own knife kit available but at the end of the day I enjoyed it. What can I say, I am a knerd. I think there are two levels of quality control that the pass around Kato and the one I received should not have passed. I don't think those kinds of QC issues are present in the American makers that are active on these forums. Perhaps it is because they are dealing direct with the customer or maybe the Japanese maker is relying on the third party distributer to catch the problematic pieces and that is a bridge too far. Maybe Shigefusa is better but I cannot afford to spend that kind of money to see another project get delivered to my door. You and your fanboy have very strong opinions but there have been many Shigs and Katos on BST lately. I wonder why?
What opinions do you talking about ?? And who is fanboy you talking about ??
The only opinion i have is like Kalaeb said, we all have our own preferences.
Did you ever see me go out and say to US makers or other and say that knife is crap and made wrong ??? I see it a lot lately about Japanese knives here
So the real fanboyism i see now is around US knives. They are not set to same criticism, as all Makers is on that bord, unlike Japanese makers
As you know i am not the only one that Sells Shigefusa. Katos i did not seen to much on BST not in comparison how many i sold.
I could show you a "Damascus" steeled blade or two made outside Japan (US) that would make you cringe.
Not only are there issues of quality control on those things, they show a very apparent lack of understanding of what a cutting edge should be, and that fungus-infested woods, bowling ball acrylics and a over-acided pattern welding of steel is only half the job, even for the aestethically challenged
Pattern welding is all fine and dandy, but it really isn't what makes a knife great.
Half the the time it is not even what makes a knife beautiful.
But the choils are highly polished, yay!
Well, I'm not gonna show you those. Bashing of named makers leads us no where.
As to available knives on BST, it seems half or even more are due to the fact that people seem to need to "free up some money for unexpected expenses" or whatever.
I've seen medical challenges, cost of moving, loss of employment and a whole slew of other reasons in there.
The economy, in parts of the world, is sadly not in a state that could be called stellar..
I have a friend in the straight razor hobby.
He must have owned razors from most any custom maker out there.
After trying them, he flips them in the classifieds as he really can't afford them, but he sure is gonna give them a good try before that!
He seems very happy with that arrangement.
Probably a valid point. People tend to protect their fav makers and sellers here, and members might be hesitant to step out of line.
When is it last time we have seen US done that here ?
I remember tk59 ones did it with Bill midteck knife but he is also kind of like Honey Badger here
did you know that the greatest knife in the world is from a small town in mexico? it's made out of rock with cactus spike handle and will cut through an avocado seed then push cut tomato with no juice leakage, will crush garlic just from being near it, can dice an onion i a single stroke. i kid you not, for realz!
What opinions do I talking about?
You don't like any US made knives. This is an opinion right?
I realize US made knives will not win the favor of the Europeans until the workshops here are as old as the bakery in Bieniek's piece of sh!t town. Even when they cut better and hold an edge longer than the multigenerational knives of Japan. As long as there is a sourdough starter in the world older than the US knife industry how could an American knife possibly cut food well?
I Still do not say that you may not like it or your opinion is wrong and knife need to be changed, do i ???
Thats what bother me most.
Thats what i arguing here :groucho:
And i dont say i dont like them, i say i dont like them that much yet for the price and my preference ! in Fact I will really like to like them hehe As most of my costumers is from US, Hek i will even like to sell them when i find one I like.
I wonder what you'd think after doing a search on this forum for a guy called Oyvind Dahle...
That is one, of many, Europeans that does find US made knives the bee's knees for sure!
Europe, very much like the US, is quite the diverse place
You should come visit some time, I'd have a cold beer and a warm bed (essential in our climate) ready for you if you did!
And sadly, I have not yet been to Bieniek's "piece of ****" town, so it would be hard for me to have an opinion on that...
Heck, just between you and me, I have actually started the process of ordering not one, but two custom made knives in the last couple of weeks.
One of them being made by a "shade tree grinder". (see what I did there ) in good ole USA!
Having experience with the objects one discusses really is an advantage I find.
Wouldn't you agree?
I had to google "shade tree" as an expression as I have never heard it before! Seems fitting from what I briefly read.
I am aware of who Oyvind Dahle is. He has some good looking knives to be sure (a Devin Thomas and a Burke come to mind for some reason). He was quite the character when he was around from what I understand.
I have been to Europe a couple of times and enjoyed it very much. If I ever make it Oslo I would love to take you up on the beer offer! My wife has family in Oslo so the bed part would be taken care of. Her cousins there have been trying to get her to visit again. Maybe if the dollar gains on the Euro.
My take on Bieniek's town was taken from his previous description and not based off of any first hand knowledge. I am sure it is also as old he says.
I sincerely hope you enjoy your custom knives and that you get them within a reasonable time frame.
I do find having experience with items being discussed is important. Definately pass arounds and the generosity of the members of this forum have given me the opportunity to play with far more amazing knives than I could ever dream of buying.
I would love to see this thread squashed... from what i've read everyone has different opinions on what they like.
1) many have stated japanese knives are very good for the money.
2) other knife makers are making great knives. ie: european makers, american makers,
3) everyone has different opinions on what makes their favorite knife their favorite. ie: edge rentetion, ability to take acute edges, stickton aka food release, feedback in sharpening from different types of steel.
a whole lot more but the point of this thread was why is kkf so japanese oriented?
plain and simple many of the knives we use is or based on japanese blades so therefore our opinions are based on experience and knowledge is about japanese blades.
american knife makers have made strides in improving the knives recently and thats through study, experience, and knowledge.
I dont think many knife makers would turn down conversations with other knife makers just because their practice is different. i actually think they would invite a conversation
because many of these knife makers try their best to perfect what they are doing. I really dont think most of us are quallified to say what is better. because people standards vary between profession.
ie; a butcher uses cheap scimitars because they amount of meat they cut in a day justifies the use of steels. and many japanese knives dont benefit much from steels because the metal is a lil to hard for it. and cheap carbon scimitars have softer metal which respond very well to steeling giving the user a edge just by steeling every so often.
i just would like to state that most here at kkf enjoy our knives and the hunt for the knife that is just right for him or her. thats why many of us buy and sell our knives in the search for those knives that would make your knife kit "the ****" as we like to say.
so why cant we just get it in our heads that knives we havent tried shouldn't be judged until we have used them. I mean i love my konosuke and yusukes, my masamoto ks was well liked, my sabs have sentimental meaning to me. my watanabe wasn't right for the work i did, my tkc is loved by my co workers but doesn't give me that wow factor that others have experienced. gotta love my suisin inox honyaki, but didnt care for my mizuno honyaki. liked the devin thomas carbon that my friend lent me and like the marko that i tried but still left me looking for those knives that would complete my bag.
everyone has opinions and should be allowed to state them. but sometimes being quiet is more effective that rambling.
as dave said this thread has like 10 arguements, why should we argue when we could just do some pass arounds and let others develop their own opinions and
and just do as we normally do here at kkf, build new relationships with each other and broaden our knowledge about whats the world has to offer.
i like it here at kkf because almost all of us are knife enthusiast with warm hearts.
it should stay that way.
i say enough of the bashing and rudeness and more of the kindness. Like how everyone got together to figure out solutions for the burke situation, alot of kindness there.
cant we all just get along?
AJ, u funny!
I think some peeps missed this one.
chris thanks for the cleaver i butchered like 3 chickens martin yan style and like all the root veg in my house. now i gotta make chicken soup and fried chicken for the next 4 days plus i gotta make a bunch of chips with all this veg i have cut. lol veggie chips are the only way i can eat snacks b4 the wife gets all crazy eyed... i feel like bill cosby in the cosby show trying to sneak in anything the misses doesnt allow...
Why would you want that? You missed the subtext of successful international relations. Nations at odds making nice with offers of sleep-overs and beer.
after a bunch of what do u know? i dont like your opinions!!! and such
i like it that you see the bright side of this whole thing. i'm to cynical and negative.
Seems you never experienced the pleasure of make-up sex.
one of the best things in being a relationship. lol. besides angry sex. lol.
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