Why so japanocentric?

Discussion in 'The Kitchen Knife' started by banjo1071, Jun 21, 2013.

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  1. Jun 26, 2013 #181

    WiscoNole

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    in before lock
     
  2. Jun 26, 2013 #182
    Hell yeah...most of my sex life is just made up. :(
     
  3. Jun 26, 2013 #183

    maxim

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    Knives, Sex, Wine, steel and honey badgers :doublethumbsup:
    Good thread !!! :D
     
  4. Jun 26, 2013 #184

    bieniek

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    Im not going to put anything in your mouth.

    How much did this mid tech knife actually cost? What on earth mid tech means? You mean it cuts mid-way. Like a half carrot and for the other half you have to use another mid tech?
    Just think about it for a moment. Theres minimal difference in price. Theres huge difference in performance. Compare it to japanese cheap knife = Kochi.
    So wait, this one is 2x cheaper, and cuts 8 times better? ! How can we compare them?? :goodpost:

    Or other way, you basically mean that because the "mid tech" is 50 quid cheaper, it can just be useless? wow ;)
     
  5. Jun 26, 2013 #185

    Mucho Bocho

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    Just stirring the POOP hey Michael :flush:
     
  6. Jun 26, 2013 #186

    bieniek

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    Unfortunately yes. I actually like Devin for his input and his posts are always positive and well he seems very passionate oh and makes beautiful damascus. Not much to add, its awesome dude. But 1st rule in the kitchen, dont get personal.

    And after handling the ITK on gathering two years ago, my enthusiasm went down. I was actually thinking back then to buy one.

    I can also see some confusing opinions from you... Youre saying youre a knut, youre spending hours and hours on the stones, yet youre mentioning retention as very important.
    This one I dont care about. Mee too I like my stones talking to them using them so no problem. When worked at restaurant, would woke up half an hour earier to sharpen my knife and make it ready, every morning.

    You want to prove me wrong, you wont achieve that by saying crap about 700 year old sh!thole ;)

    Just send me the knife :thumbsup: I will gladly eat the opinion I have now.
    Send me the faulty Kato if you wish. I like polishing. I want to try one that is messed up. I want to believe.
     
  7. Jun 26, 2013 #187

    JBroida

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    FIXED
     
  8. Jun 26, 2013 #188

    rdpx

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    700 years?

    Is that all?

    I thought it was like OLD.

    ;)
     
  9. Jun 26, 2013 #189

    Birnando

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    700 years isn't old.
    Perhaps not recent, but definitely not old:)

    Only last month I attended a confirmation of a friends daughter.
    The ceremony was conducted in a church erected around 1080 AD.
    Nothing special about that, it is in daily use;)

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Aker_Church
     
  10. Jun 27, 2013 #190

    panda

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    This thread just got boring.
     
  11. Jun 27, 2013 #191

    Birnando

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    The reason for that must be that you stopped contributing;)
     
  12. Jun 27, 2013 #192

    Zwiefel

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    Age has absolutely no relation to value. zero. zed. zip. nada. nunka. As a historian, I'm continually baffled by both sides of the Atlantic on this topic.
     
  13. Jun 27, 2013 #193

    Gator

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    What's so confusing about wanting better edge retention? I can sharpen just about anything to be sharp and then what? Using your logic, i.e. removing edge retention from the equation, Furi or Pakistani no name junk knives are just as good as top end kitchen knives from either side of the ocean. Nevermind that the edge lasts 3 minutes on one, and 3 month on the other... Is that what you really are saying?

    P.S. I am not quite sure what's up with town ages and how is that related to knives anyway. I hope knives in there are not made using 700 year old tech :)
     
  14. Jun 27, 2013 #194

    Birnando

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    While Bieniek is more than capable of answering this on his own, I'd like to give my two cents on that subject.
    The idea, to some, seems to be that a traditional steel, like good Japanese carbon steeled knives, (shigs and whatnot) can take that little extra keenness fresh of the hones.
    The longevity of that edge seems less important to some of us, as honing is another enjoyable/acceptable part of this sport/hobby or whatever.

    If I am to speak for myself, I tend to agree with the above, and do not enjoy one bit the rubbery feeling modern super-steels gives while honing.
    further more, they seem to be able to hone up pretty good, but they seem to settle very quickly at about 95% of what was achieved on the hones, and keep that way longer than most carbon steeled knives.
    And while 95% is just fine and dandy for getting the job done, some of us seem to prefer the even keener edges that we feel some traditional knives will yield.
    That last paragraph is my experience on the subject thus far anyways.

    In other words, it is all about feel.
    Both while using the tool, but also when honing them.

    Not nescessarily ease of honing, but feel.

    As a final sigh before I hit the sack, we should probably all consider the fact that most anything we discuss regarding this topic would leave the majority of chefs and novice users alike shaking their heads and consider us all pretty much ready for the looney bin...
    Splitting hairs and minute differences would be other terms to describe what I mean:)
     
  15. Jun 27, 2013 #195

    Chuckles

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    This sounds like a nice routine to me. :)

    Mornings I am a Dad not a chef. The kiddo is asleep by the time I am done with work so no knife sharpening before work for me. When working sous in a kitchen that closed at 1:00 AM and was BUSY until midnight while being home alone with a 3 month old starting at 4:30 AM I admit my "preference" for edge retention changed radically.

    Already fixed. I will admit your posts on Kato were very helpful. I do think it is a very strong performer now.

    image.jpg
     
  16. Jun 27, 2013 #196

    bieniek

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    And then you have to use it hard, so you can sharpen some more. How simple is that concept?
    At work, I never think whats better for the edge retention, I bash the edge chip the edge scrape board with the edge. Chop chop chop job done. Tell me how wrong I am and maybe send Dick Chenney to fix me. I dont do that because of lack of respect for the tool, oh no, I really like my stuff polished but all of them, indeed, are tools.

    They earn my money. Maybe thats the difference?

    Im not sure why you start talking about Pakistani? Are these ground in similar manner to decent kitchen knife? Are them really all that sharpenable? I just handled one so far, from my experience it did not tick any of these boxes, maybe youve had such a luck?
    But really, you managed that good edge on a 'furi' blade??
     
  17. Jun 27, 2013 #197

    Crothcipt

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    Are you kidding?? Birnando just introduced the original term of dungeons and dragons with that link. Maybe euro popcorn is better than jpop.


    :popcorn:

    I myself wonder why the blade road on a us makers knife is so small with hollow bevels? I see it all the time, and end up reaching for something that is influenced in a totally different way.:2cents:
     
  18. Jun 27, 2013 #198

    Squilliam

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    I may be taking you out of context here, but age is related to scarcity and scarcity is related to value. Let alone tradition, sentiment etc. which are both very valuable to people, more valuable than money and logic.
     
  19. Jun 27, 2013 #199

    Gator

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    I see :) So, having higher edge retention prevents you from enjoying sharpening process more often. I suppose to each his own.

    Dude, your "US is so evil" gets kindda old :) You don't have to squeeze political crap into sharpening/knife use discussion, and no I didn't post a reply to you based on nationality or location...
    I'm not sure whether you are in Oslo or Poland, but at any rate, you probably should be worried more about Putin as a threat to your 700yr old home town, rather than me sending Dick Cheney powered by electrical pump to wreck havoc in there or change your sharpening habits.

    And spending more time on sharpening vs. actual cutting helps to earn more money how? As far as I understand you are getting paid for cooking, not for sharpening?

    Yeah, if you try hard and long enough you will, lasts for very short time, but its presence can be detected :)
     
  20. Jun 27, 2013 #200

    Gator

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    I suppose hones == stones? Anyway, how long that keennss lasts if you bash the edge and scrape on the board an chip it? I have not used any of my Japanese knives fresh off the stone, as usual I go with 3 different strops after that, I can't really comment on exact longevity under such use, but I suspect stronger edge would help.

    Alright, that's fine, although nothing prevents you guys form sharpening as often as you want :) Regardless of the blade edge retention.

    Well, as it was posted, sounds like you guys would rather have Shirogami or Aogami at 60 hrc is vs. 64-65... There's plenty of makers doing both, so which one would you choose?
     
  21. Jun 27, 2013 #201

    Birnando

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    I'll strop most of my knives as well, usually with a pasted felt strop followed by a leather paddle I have.

    Correct, hones=stones.
    As the bulk of my honing is done on straight razors, I tend to use the more commonly used term from that scene:)


    No, I don't think so. The 64-65 mark is well within what I consider preferable.
    On the right steel, with the right grind, and with the proper angle.

    While others tend to disagree with that, there really is no right or wrong with either.
    Simply put, this boils down to preferenses, not quality.

    Well, at least in the realms of custom/semi custom/high grade area we seem to discuss i this thread.
     
  22. Jun 27, 2013 #202

    Mucho Bocho

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    Birnando, Perhaps you should post some pics of your knives? I'm sure there are may of here that would love to see what knife could possibly stand up to your scrutiny.

    Let me guess, you picked up the "Homemaker plus eight right?" Little Cutco humor. Serious, pleae post some pics of your favorite blades.
     
  23. Jun 27, 2013 #203

    Birnando

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    Heh, yeah, how could I go wrong with the Homemaker + 8
    US made and all;)

    Quite a few of my knives are already on this site.
    More will follow.
    Heck, I even bought one more just today, ordered another custom two days ago, and a third one is in my shopping cart on a webshop we all know:)
    Perhaps I should start a "Birnando's Knives v.2.0" thread some day.

    On a serious note though, standing up to my scrutiny doesn't take something way out of the norm.
    I simply have my preferences, as I am sure most here do.
    Luckily there are variation in those, otherwise what fun would this forum be?
     
  24. Jun 28, 2013 #204

    Zwiefel

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    Poor wording on my part, but having trouble selecting better words...."intrinsic relationship" maybe? Not sure at all about a relationship of age to scarcity, or that scarcity is related to value.....which is different from price, and probably impossible to define in objective terms.

    mainly I'm trying to say that "older is better" and "newer is better" are absurd oversimplifications...."better is better."
     
  25. Jun 29, 2013 #205

    stereo.pete

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    http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/showthread.php/6908-New-gear-arrived-today
     
  26. Jul 6, 2013 #206

    Seb

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    FWIW, I became interested in German knives after hearing about them from a German member (iceman01) and tried to get my hands on some Herder/Windmuehlenmesser carbons.

    So I emailed that Messerkontor outfit (several times, albeit in English) and did not get a single reply - seems they are not at all interested in export business. I also noticed that their listed prices are outrageously marked up to the MAX.

    Eventually, someone (apologies, can't remember who) hooked me up with an ebay seller called Kochenmachspass and I got some very cheap straight edged carbon parers that I still like and use whenever I can. This seller was very helpful and courteous. They have some interesting shapes, steels and handles woods but my general impression is that the German products are a terrible value compared to the Japanese. The prices are outrageously high for what you get.
     
  27. Jul 6, 2013 #207

    Seb

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    I'm more partial to wines from the Coonawarra region. :)
     
  28. Jul 6, 2013 #208

    Benuser

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  29. Jul 6, 2013 #209

    Seb

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    Thank you, I may try the 1922 8" chefs one day. Shipping costs to Australia can often make it into a bad deal, though.

    Edit to add: I see that Australia (where I am) is not included in the Shipping Options - doesn't mean they won't/don't though but I suspect that the damage would be high.

    The K2 on that page also looks like fun but after you convert GBP into AUD and add shipping it becomes a poor value. And, sorry to be rude, but nothing on that page is really anything to really get excited about. I would probably take a Tanaka in Blue#2. :)

    This might be another consideration to add: the cost structure for shipping outside Europe is often a competitive disadvantage for knife exporters.

    And those wa-gyuto-inspired blades on Messerkontor that they are asking 400-500 Euros for look like very very bad value indeed. Pretty huge luxury price premium there, I would imagine.

    From limited past experience, shipping from Germany itself (to Australia) is very expensive - their very strict consumer protection regulations are the cause, I suppose.
     
  30. Jul 6, 2013 #210

    Seb

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