Wire edge or bad technique?

[JakobE]

So I sharpen my knives since 2019, always got it sharp. Last year I become better and my knives got screaming sharp but the last 3 or 4 times my edge get dull after one prep.
Don‘t know what it‘s wrong, some people said to me I have a wire edge.
I bought a 25$ microscope on amazon to look at my edge.
This is my edge after shapton glass 1000 and 5 stropes on raw leather.
Here are the pictures with 40x zoom
1: from top at 3-5 dagrees
2 & 3: left side at ~45 dagrees
4 & 5: right side also ~45 dagrees

Pleas help me find my problem.

 

[MarcelNL]

how is your angle, when you are sharpening at too small of an angle (depends on what steel) your edge may be gone quite fast...happened to me when I was using Global knives, since then I moved on to better steel that keeps an edge much longer but it's still possible to sharpen at an angle too too steep.

 

[Rangen]

It really doesn't look bad, but there is maybe a suspicious glow at the edge in the 4th and 5th pictures. Is this before it got dull, or after? If before, wire edges can be hard to spot, even under magnification. If after it gets dull, you can see any sort of line at all, looking at the edge in direct light (sunlight is best), and moving around to try to catch the apex in the light, then it probably was a wire edge.

Also, leaving a burr/wire edge is the easiest thing in the world. FWIW, I regard 30 strokes on raw leather, on each side, to be a minimum, when I strop. Try to feel, as you strop, whether there is any slight catch at all, and notice when it smooths out.

 

[JakobE]

how is your angle, when you are sharpening at too small of an angle (depends on what steel) your edge may be gone quite fast...happened to me when I was using Global knives, since then I moved on to better steel that keeps an edge much longer but it's still possible to sharpen at an angle too too steep.

About 12 dagrees and this is a Toyama B2 Dammy.

 

[JakobE]

It really doesn't look bad, but there is maybe a suspicious glow at the edge in the 4th and 5th pictures. Is this before it got dull, or after? If before, wire edges can be hard to spot, even under magnification. If after it gets dull, you can see any sort of line at all, looking at the edge in direct light (sunlight is best), and moving around to try to catch the apex in the light, then it probably was a wire edge.

Also, leaving a burr/wire edge is the easiest thing in the world. FWIW, I regard 30 strokes on raw leather, on each side, to be a minimum, when I strop. Try to feel, as you strop, whether there is any slight catch at all, and notice when it smooths out.

I will look at it tomorrow under sunlight.
Thank you!

 

[Naftoor]

Honestly been running into the same issue recently. Edge survives draw cuts into cardboard, push cuts circles in printer paper perfectly. 1-2 home meals and it’s no longer nail biting. So I’ll be following this to see what your findings are!

 

[PappaG]

How is your thinning game?

 

[Benuser]

In my experience it makes little sense trying to get rid of a wire edge, once it's there. If you succeed, the edge behind it likely to get ragged. Better restart sharpening. Don't be afraid of starting with a relatively coarse stone. Fatigued steel is more likely to form a wire edge than fresh one. Make sure you're reaching the very edge and don't stop before: or you're accumulating debris on top of the old edge, wich will eventually result in a wire edge. Complete one bevel before starting with the other side. Don't continuously flip sides. Check for reaching the very edge with a sharpie and a loupe. With a naked eye you won't see the last unsharpened part, especially if the angle is slightly lower than with previous sharpenings.
Deburr with every stone in the progression. It's perfectly common when the first, coarsest stone will take a lot of time. Go only to the finer one when the burr only flips without getting smaller, even with the lightest touch. Hurrying through the progression is asking for problems: don't expect finer stones to solve what has been neglected with the coarser ones.
Jig systems and edge trailing motions, especially when alternating sides, are likely to cause wire edge. And, of course, steel may be a factor. Too low an angle with some steels just can't get properly deburred. Wüsthof delivers wire edges OOTB, with their 13dps on soft Krupp's 4116.

 

[Kippington]

Pleas help me find my problem.

Honestly been running into the same issue recently.

I'm thinking you guys are running into the same problem, but you ain't gonna be happy with the answer... In fact, all good sharpeners (who actually use their knives) have come across this at some stage.

If I'm right. it's a two part problem that's formed over the last year:

• You've acquired finer abrasives, and learned to refine the edge to an extremely smooth edge that passes the sharpness tests with flying colours.
• You've rapidly improved your sharpening game. and your standards on what a proper-sharp edge feels like has shot up.

So assuming there's not another issue present (e.g. burr stuff, etc): Congratulations! You are both good sharpeners

Now the bad news.
Your recently acquired high-standards - that screaming sharp "fresh off the stones" edge - is gonna deteriorate pretty damn quickly every time you hit a cutting board. Even the super-steels at high hardness can't keep this kind of edge for long. It helps if you practice using less force at the board.

Also, smooth edges that were refined on high grits simply don't last all that long in the kitchen (unless you're slicing things like boneless raw fish with minimal pressure and board contact). We call a high level of refinement a "slick" edge, as opposed to a toothy one finished on a coarser stone.
A good idea would be to try finishing on a much coarser stone, around the 500 grit mark, and compare the results of edge retention and longevity to what you were previously experiencing with the polished edge.

These are probably not the answers you wanted to hear, but c'est la vie. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[JakobE]

I'm thinking you guys are running into the same problem, but you ain't gonna be happy with the answer... In fact, all good sharpeners (who actually use their knives) have come across this at some stage.

If I'm right. it's a two part problem that's formed over the last year:

• You've acquired finer abrasives, and learned to refine the edge to an extremely smooth edge that passes the sharpness tests with flying colours.
• You've rapidly improved your sharpening game. and your standards on what a proper-sharp edge feels like has shot up.

So assuming there's not another issue present (e.g. burr stuff, etc): Congratulations! You are both good sharpeners

Now the bad news.
Your recently acquired high-standards - that screaming sharp "fresh off the stones" edge - is gonna deteriorate pretty damn quickly every time you hit a cutting board. Even the super-steels at high hardness can't keep this kind of edge for long. It helps if you practice using less force at the board.

Also, smooth edges that were refined on high grits simply don't last all that long in the kitchen (unless you're slicing things like boneless raw fish with minimal pressure and board contact). We call a high level of refinement a "slick" edge, as opposed to a toothy one finished on a coarser stone.
A good idea would be to try finishing on a much coarser stone, around the 500 grit mark, and compare the results of edge retention and longevity to what you were previously experiencing with the polished edge.

These are probably not the answers you wanted to hear, but c'est la vie. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

So, with the high standards you are wright.
But my problem is that after 1 prep I cant even cut tomatoes without high pressure.
The B2 give me really hard times, don‘t have the problem with B1 or S2. Same technique but other result.

 

[mengwong]

Pleas help me find my problem.

Can you upload a video showing the last two minutes of action on your SG1000? I have a hypothesis… (OPIETAHP vs OPSELALP, will explain after I see the video)

 

[Benuser]

Looking forward to seeing it. My guess is, it has to do with edge leading or trailing.

 

[JakobE]

Can you upload a video showing the last two minutes of action on your SG1000? I have a hypothesis… (OPIETAHP vs OPSELALP, will explain after I see the video)

Currently I‘m sick, but will make one.

 

[JakobE]

Found this one, sorry for the conversation.
I have tried a new technique, ****ed up the edge a little bit. Still have the same issue.
Can’t see a wire with the flashlight but the knife still lose sharpness like hell.
Maybe the edge is to ****ed up after sharpening it the 5th time in one week, don‘t know.

 

[RDalman]

Very low sharpening angle and you finish with stropping both on stone and leather. Look at adding a microbevel and finish edge leading (low contact pressure) on the stone. Skip stropping.

 

[RDalman]

What I do for microbevel is not as extreme angle as Jon does here, I just raise the angle slightly and do symmetrical from both sides while doing edge leadning strokes with minimal contact pressure (and get the deburring done that way). The microbevel should be tiny enough you sharpen it away quickly when sharpening again, imo. But everyone should sharpen to suit themselves ofc also.

 

[stringer]

What I do for microbevel is not as extreme angle as Jon does here, I just raise the angle slightly and do symmetrical from both sides while doing edge leadning strokes with minimal contact pressure (and get the deburring done that way). The microbevel should be tiny enough you sharpen it away quickly when sharpening again, imo. But everyone should sharpen to suit themselves ofc also.

I agree with Robin and what Ben said above. That heavy edge trailing work you do at the end will definitely raise a nasty wire edge.

I would try finishing with very soft contact alternating sweeping edge leading strokes at a slightly higher angle than your scrubbing work. Creates a nice sturdy properly deburred but small and thin microbevel.

This video is several years old and embarrassingly jankity but still explains my thoughts pretty well better than I can with a wall of words.

Good luck to finding that sharp lasting edge. It can be a tough journey but well worth it to get it figured out. Beautiful knife.

 

[RDalman]

I agree with Robin and what Ben said above. That heavy edge trailing work you do at the end will definitely raise a nasty wire edge.

I would try finishing with very soft contact alternating sweeping edge leading strokes at a slightly higher angle than your scrubbing work. Creates a nice sturdy properly deburred but small and thin microbevel.

This video is several years old and embarrassingly jankity but still explains my thoughts pretty well better than I can with a wall of words.

Good luck to finding that sharp lasting edge. It can be a tough journey but well worth it to get it figured out. Beautiful knife.

Super video that, good explanations.

 

[mengwong]

OPIETAHP vs OPSELALP

Based on the initial report my hypothesis was:

OP is: edge trailing at high pressure

OP should: edge leading at low pressure

 

[JakobE]

Thank you all for your help, looking forward to the next session.
I will keep you updated.