Yoshikane differences?

[justaute]

I also have a 210 SKD K-tip gyuto from EE -- real popular. It cuts very well. No wedging for me.
A few measurements:
3.25mm at heel
2.05mm at mid-blade
1.80mm at 1 cm from tip
Height at heel is 50.9mm
146g

 

[captaincaed]

I wouldn't beat on a Yoshi, it's pretty thin

 

[tomsch]

^^ - Good tip. I do have a couple lasers and the goal is to find a 240 that is a little bit more durable but not quite as heavy as my Tsourkan WH.

 

[Hz_zzzzzz]

^^ - Good tip. I do have a couple lasers and the goal is to find a 240 that is a little bit more durable but not quite as heavy as my Tsourkan WH.

Seems like you are describing Toyanabe stainless clad knives, but Yoshi is also good for sure. You can probably sell some of your redundant lasers.

 

[deskjockey]

The Nihei seems like a top pick for me at the moment with its pseudo-D2'ish steel. It is a bit more than the hammered finish SKD Yoshikane but, generally is a little cheaper than the pear finish SKD Yoshikane options.

While a bit more than the popular Heiji, the slightly convex or rounded transition between the bevel and side of the blade apparently are a good feature for better food release. The Heiji is also apparently a little heavier so, that could be better or worse depending on what you are looking for.

 

[Cliff]

What about the Kaeru. It's got similar steel, but it's tougher.

 

[superworrier]

Nihei is super nice. I would describe it as smooth, vs Yoshikane I would describe as more ghosting through food. I think the main difference is that the convexity is super well done, so there's no discernible shoulders. It feels like for any food, the amount of force to complete a cut is consistent. Tip works well too. Profile is pretty much exactly Yoshikane. I imagine the convexity though means thinning is necessary more often (just a guess).

Big regrets on passing up on the 240 on BST which had a super deep nashiji.

 

[deskjockey]

What about the Kaeru. It's got similar steel, but it's tougher.

At ~$205USD with shipping to the USA, I'll think I will pass for the time being. DHL Express is a good shipper but, I'm a bit cautious with US Customs right now with more expensive things. And, it has one of the cheapest handles you can find that isn't all plastic. Weight is right in the mix though, it looks to share the Heiji profile where it would benefit with some convexing for food release and cutting instead of the hard transition from the bevel to the side of the blade.

 

[Cliff]

It's less expensive than the others. I like those basic handles, but I can see not everyone does. It's not remotely like Heiji. It's much thinner. It doesn't have those shoulders. It's not as thin as Yoshi or Nihei, and you can work it harder.

 

[deskjockey]

It's less expensive than the others. I like those basic handles, but I can see not everyone does. It's not remotely like Heiji. It's much thinner. It doesn't have those shoulders. It's not as thin as Yoshi or Nihei, and you can work it harder.

https://www.japanesenaturalstones.com/kaeru-kasumi-stainless-gyuto-240mm/

• Width of Spine at Handle- 4,6mm
• Width of Spine Above Heel-3,5mm
• Width of Spine at Middle- 2mm
• Width of Spine 1cm from the tip- 1mm
• weight: 180g

https://carbonknifeco.com/collections/nihei-knives/products/nihei-sld-nashiji-gyuto-240mm

• Edge length: 247mm
• Height at heel: 51mm
• Thickness above heel: 3.6mm
• Weight: 186g

Yes, they do look pretty similar from the specs.

 

[user 16756]

https://www.japanesenaturalstones.com/kaeru-kasumi-stainless-gyuto-240mm/

• Width of Spine at Handle- 4,6mm
• Width of Spine Above Heel-3,5mm
• Width of Spine at Middle- 2mm
• Width of Spine 1cm from the tip- 1mm
• weight: 180g

https://carbonknifeco.com/collections/nihei-knives/products/nihei-sld-nashiji-gyuto-240mm

• Edge length: 247mm
• Height at heel: 51mm
• Thickness above heel: 3.6mm
• Weight: 186g

Yes, they do look pretty similar from the specs.

you have people who've owned them telling you that's not the case Im not sure quoting the spec sheet back at people is the way to go here.

 

[deskjockey]

you have people who've owned them telling you that's not the case Im not sure quoting the spec sheet back at people is the way to go here.

I'm not trying to argue or insult anyone. What I would like to know is if the specs I'm reviewing are not accurate because I could be mistakingly looking at a different knife or, the specs themselves could be wrong. Without actually handling them in person, subjective opinions and explicit specifications are all I have to go on. And, JNS specifications are a bit thin so, it is possible someone who owns one could add some details from their own measurements.

And to be clear, I do appreciate everyone's opinion even if it is different than my own

The Nihei is in stock in the USA, a similar Yoshikane is OOS for the same price. The Kaeru has similar specs I think with a plainer finish and is in the EU for less money which is tempting if I don't get sucked into the cosmetics or hold out for the Yoshikane. I have been told the Yoshikane restocks will come in at a higher price which is giving the nod to the Nihei though, with the Kaeru at the same weight I'm unsure how much difference in actual use there is.

 

[esoo]

The Nihei/Yoshikane grind is completely different than the Kaeru grind (at least the SLD one I had). The Kaeru I had I would've called the j-knife version of my dad's Henkel's 4-star.

The Yoshi's I've had (supposedly the Kono YS-M and the Yoshi Amekiri) and Nihei (in the form of a Kono Sumiiro Bunka) had grinds that would run circles around a Kaeru. The Kaeru was not even close to the same league with the Yoshi/Nihei being among the best cutters I've handled.

The only way to truly understand how a knife may or may not cut is to use it. That may result in buying blindly and then selling on the BST. Part of the reason I''ve bought and sold around 30 knives over the last 3 years.

 

[daveb]

you have people who've owned them

Don't mind Richard, he's trying to sorta help..... And he's right that there's more to a knife than a spec sheet. The Kaeru is a solid entry level knife that will fit everyone a little bit. The Nihei is likely to be for someone that knows a little bit about what they want from a knife and provides for that niche. I'm not sure how many apprentices Yoshikane has had but everyone I've tried has been a great knife (to me). Thin and flat. Like my gf, the supermodel

 

[captaincaed]

I've been tricked by spec sheets before. I had a very kind vendor try and dissuade me from buying a knife that didn't fit my needs, based on the conversation. I bought it anyway. It became a gift to a relative, then I bought one that he recommended. All to say, there is a qualitative difference between the numbers that's part of the joy of nicer knives. People here love to share their experiences, and I don't think anyone here has an interest in any particular shop or line of knives. Anyway, happy hunting!

FWIW, Nihei apparently learned at the Yoshikane shop (from the description you linked), so I'd expect those knives to be damn thin. Another Yoshikane apprentice, Masashi, makes knives with the thinnest tips I've ever seen. Very delicate, but screaming performers if you use the kid gloves.

 

[M1k3]

I've been tricked by spec sheets before. I had a very kind vendor try and dissuade me from buying a knife that didn't fit my needs, based on the conversation. I bought it anyway. It became a gift to a relative, then I bought one that he recommended. All to say, there is a qualitative difference between the numbers that's part of the joy of nicer knives. People here love to share their experiences, and I don't think anyone here has an interest in any particular shop or line of knives. Anyway, happy hunting!

FWIW, Nihei apparently learned at the Yoshikane shop (from the description you linked), so I'd expect those knives to be damn thin. Another Yoshikane apprentice, Masashi, makes knives with the thinnest tips I've ever seen. Very delicate, but screaming performers if you use the kid gloves.

Kaeru Workhorse. Website says 240 grams. Had one at 311 grams.

 

[Delat]

Tomoo Matsumura at Tojiro Atelier is another smith who trained with Kazuomi Yamamoto of Yoshikane. He’s making knives under the Hatsukokoro sub-brand of Tojiro Atelier (small-scale “craftsman” style single-smith-crafted section of Tojiro). Hatsukokoro is also apparently making knives for Yoshikane to Yoshi specs sold at JNS (not sure if that was already mentioned in this thread).

But for knives sold under the Hatsukokoro brand I’d say they’re a bit thicker and tougher than my Yoshi SKD, with a convex instead of concave grind, and somewhat similar profile with a long flat spot. I really like the AS gyuto I have from them.

 

[tostadas]

I'm not trying to argue or insult anyone. What I would like to know is if the specs I'm reviewing are not accurate because I could be mistakingly looking at a different knife or, the specs themselves could be wrong. Without actually handling them in person, subjective opinions and explicit specifications are all I have to go on. And, JNS specifications are a bit thin so, it is possible someone who owns one could add some details from their own measurements.

And to be clear, I do appreciate everyone's opinion even if it is different than my own

The Nihei is in stock in the USA, a similar Yoshikane is OOS for the same price. The Kaeru has similar specs I think with a plainer finish and is in the EU for less money which is tempting if I don't get sucked into the cosmetics or hold out for the Yoshikane. I have been told the Yoshikane restocks will come in at a higher price which is giving the nod to the Nihei though, with the Kaeru at the same weight I'm unsure how much difference in actual use there is.

Spine thickness can only tell you so much about a knife. The part that has the most effect on the cutting performance is the thickness/grind of the knife immediately behind the edge, and those measurements are generally not included in any vendor spec sheets.

Similarly, without information about the grind, the weight also provides only a bit of info. It really depends where that weight is. For example, if you grind a knife and take off 5g behind the edge, it would probably make a significant impact. However, if you were to say take that 5g off from the spine, or from the tang, there would be virtually no difference in performance.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that it's easy to get caught up in thickness and weights, but in my opinion, they don't mean a whole lot when using them to infer difference in performance between makers.

 

[Jason183]

If I’m choosing between 2 Yoshikanes, I would be looking at the spec sheet for the personal preference. Sometimes it can vary between different batches.

My first Yoshikane was Hatsukokoro brand, 4mm+ on the heel spine with 240mm edge length, it wedges on carrots. My 2nd Yoshikane (Kono YS) 3.2 mm at the heel spine with 245 mm edge length, does have thinner cutting feel and goes through carrots more smooth.

liked others have said, spec sheet won’t be helpful if those two knives have different kind of grinds.

 

[deskjockey]

The Nihei/Yoshikane grind is completely different than the Kaeru grind (at least the SLD one I had). The Kaeru I had I would've called the j-knife version of my dad's Henkel's 4-star.

The Yoshi's I've had (supposedly the Kono YS-M and the Yoshi Amekiri) and Nihei (in the form of a Kono Sumiiro Bunka) had grinds that would run circles around a Kaeru. The Kaeru was not even close to the same league with the Yoshi/Nihei being among the best cutters I've handled.

The only way to truly understand how a knife may or may not cut is to use it. That may result in buying blindly and then selling on the BST. Part of the reason I''ve bought and sold around 30 knives over the last 3 years.

Thank you Esso! Without owning a Kaeru or Heiji, it really hard to know what one is buying without actually holding it in person. Your posts strongly suggest the Kaeru is one purchase I should avoid.

 

[deskjockey]

Don't mind Richard, he's trying to sorta help..... And he's right that there's more to a knife than a spec sheet. The Kaeru is a solid entry level knife that will fit everyone a little bit. The Nihei is likely to be for someone that knows a little bit about what they want from a knife and provides for that niche. I'm not sure how many apprentices Yoshikane has had but everyone I've tried has been a great knife (to me). Thin and flat. Like my gf, the supermodel

Yes, I totally get a spec sheet only telling me a small part of the story! It is a bit like saying a motorcycle has a certain horsepower, torque, or weight. Two that weigh the same can have vastly different handling. Same with engine power with a V-Twin crushing it off the line versus a high strung triple or inline-four screaming at redline.

However, a spec sheet is one empirical data point to consider in an initial screening to down select a smaller number for further consideration.

Now, to find that SUPERMODEL knife!

 

[Delat]

If I’m choosing between 2 Yoshikanes, I would be looking at the spec sheet for the personal preference. Sometimes it can vary between different batches.

My first Yoshikane was Hatsukokoro brand, 4mm+ on the heel spine with 240mm edge length, it wedges on carrots. My 2nd Yoshikane (Kono YS) 3.2 mm at the heel spine with 245 mm edge length, does have thinner cutting feel and goes through carrots more smooth.

liked others have said, spec sheet won’t be helpful if those two knives have different kind of grinds.

Was that the “Hatsukokoro by Yoshikane” from JNS? I just checked my Yoshi 210 SKD from EE and it’s 3.6mm at the heel. I was surprised to see that it’s my thickest knife measured at that point! It’s my smoothest, lightest cutter and doesn’t wedge on carrots at all.

My Hatsukokoro Inazuma (i.e. not the Yoshi version) is actually around 2.4mm at the same point, but due to the slightly thicker convex grind has a bit more resistance through food.

 

[deskjockey]

I've been tricked by spec sheets before. I had a very kind vendor try and dissuade me from buying a knife that didn't fit my needs, based on the conversation. I bought it anyway. It became a gift to a relative, then I bought one that he recommended. All to say, there is a qualitative difference between the numbers that's part of the joy of nicer knives. People here love to share their experiences, and I don't think anyone here has an interest in any particular shop or line of knives. Anyway, happy hunting!

FWIW, Nihei apparently learned at the Yoshikane shop (from the description you linked), so I'd expect those knives to be damn thin. Another Yoshikane apprentice, Masashi, makes knives with the thinnest tips I've ever seen. Very delicate, but screaming performers if you use the kid gloves.

Yep, spec sheet only analysis can lead one to make a poor choice for the task at hand. I had a nice chat with CKC about the Nihei and a couple of other knives and that certainly reinforced my thoughts about the Nihei being a good option for me.

 

[Jason183]

Was that the “Hatsukokoro by Yoshikane” from JNS? I just checked my Yoshi 210 SKD from EE and it’s 3.6mm at the heel. I was surprised to see that it’s my thickest knife measured at that point! It’s my smoothest, lightest cutter and doesn’t wedge on carrots at all.

My Hatsukokoro Inazuma (i.e. not the Yoshi version) is actually around 2.4mm at the same point, but due to the slightly thicker convex grind has a bit more resistance through food.

The Hatsukokoro one I had was from the knife roll, liked you described, more thicker and tougher, a little bit more workhorse feel to it.

 

[deskjockey]

Kaeru Workhorse. Website says 240 grams. Had one at 311 grams.

I originally clicked the wrong knife when I saw the original post and went to the JNS website. That was a primary reason I posted the specs to ensure I was viewing the same knife referenced in that post.

240 grams would be heavier than I want but, 311 grams sounds like a Yo-Deba weight range to me.

 

[deskjockey]

Tomoo Matsumura at Tojiro Atelier is another smith who trained with Kazuomi Yamamoto of Yoshikane. He’s making knives under the Hatsukokoro sub-brand of Tojiro Atelier (small-scale “craftsman” style single-smith-crafted section of Tojiro). Hatsukokoro is also apparently making knives for Yoshikane to Yoshi specs sold at JNS (not sure if that was already mentioned in this thread).

But for knives sold under the Hatsukokoro brand I’d say they’re a bit thicker and tougher than my Yoshi SKD, with a convex instead of concave grind, and somewhat similar profile with a long flat spot. I really like the AS gyuto I have from them.

I have looked briefly at the Hatsukokoro brand. That is one I would really like to learn more about but, with limited availability and similarity to other knifemakers will likely remain a curiosity on the fringes.

 

[deskjockey]

If I’m choosing between 2 Yoshikanes, I would be looking at the spec sheet for the personal preference. Sometimes it can vary between different batches.

My first Yoshikane was Hatsukokoro brand, 4mm+ on the heel spine with 240mm edge length, it wedges on carrots. My 2nd Yoshikane (Kono YS) 3.2 mm at the heel spine with 245 mm edge length, does have thinner cutting feel and goes through carrots more smooth.

liked others have said, spec sheet won’t be helpful if those two knives have different kind of grinds.

Yes, the grind matters most. What spec sheets lack that would be helpful is a cross-section view.

This is probably the single biggest thing that causes me to pause when thinking about a Heiji. The posts where I see people polishing away at the bevel to 'break' the transition suggests to me the grind isn't really what I want.

This is contrasted by the love I see in general for the Heiji knives. Kaeru being compared to a German chef's knife also tells me it is not a good choice for what I want.

 

[Cliff]

The Nihei/Yoshikane grind is completely different than the Kaeru grind (at least the SLD one I had).

Yes, agreed. I have both Yoshis and a Kaeru.

The Kaeru I had I would've called the j-knife version of my dad's Henkel's 4-star.

This is not a fair or helpful comparison. The point is that Yoshi, and I gather Nihei, are very high performance knives that are, by necessity, very thin behind the edge. They are both taken to a fairly high HRC. That means they are at least a bit fragile. You have to be mindful of ingredients.

I think it makes more sense to compare Kaeru to something like a Mac Pro or a Misono -- good, solid professional knives. Any of these will outperform Henkels. I don't think any of them is quite as tough. I've lost track in the discussion, is this for pro or home use? For a pro, who's going to beat on the knife all day, I do not think you will do better for the money than the Kaeru. It's less than a Mac Pro. They put the money where it belongs, into excellent steel, and mine looks to have been finished on stones. If you want a fancy handle or Morihiro finishing, this is not the knife for you. A handle alone will cost around $100. This is a $170 knife. I haven't given up my Misono Dragon, but my Kaeru was a much better performer out of the box. It has a KS profile with extra heel height. It feels bigger than 240 and is a great all around knife. If you're looking for top, top performance, you can do better. But the knife won't be as tough, and it will cost more.

 

[tostadas]

Yes, the grind matters most. What spec sheets lack that would be helpful is a cross-section view.

This is probably the single biggest thing that causes me to pause when thinking about a Heiji. The posts where I see people polishing away at the bevel to 'break' the transition suggests to me the grind isn't really what I want.

This is contrasted by the love I see in general for the Heiji knives. Kaeru being compared to a German chef's knife also tells me it is not a good choice for what I want.

The standard Kaeru that I had was most similar to my Wakui (migaki version, not the thicker nashiji version). In terms of cutting performance, balance, and grind. Behind the edge measurements were about 0.25/0.8/1.2/1.7mm (@1mm/5mm/10mm/20mm measured at midpoint). The kaeru had more spine taper near the handle, resulting in a thicker tang area, while the Wakui had more edge taper near the tip. Also the Kaeru is pretty right-hand biased.

So while clearly not identical, I would definitely say that the Kaeru feels and performs much more like a thinner midweight gyuto rather than a thick german chunk of steel.

 

[esoo]

Yes, agreed. I have both Yoshis and a Kaeru.

This is not a fair or helpful comparison. The point is that Yoshi, and I gather Nihei, are very high performance knives that are, by necessity, very thin behind the edge. They are both taken to a fairly high HRC. That means they are at least a bit fragile. You have to be mindful of ingredients.

I had a 210 Kaeru SLD from a number of years ago - it was thick, very workhorse-ish from what I recall. Distal Taper was good, but don't remember much convexity (if any at all). My comparison was based on my recollection - I sold the knife nearly two years ago as it was never in use.