Your personal experience with VG-10

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VG10 is a nice quality stainless when in the hands of a good blacksmith. Like another stated, I think the Echizen crowd knows what it is doing. That makes sense, since VG10 originated from there. There may be other stainless steels that are better, ginsan is really nice. Personally, I prefer VG10 over the powdered steels, but I like a little more weight in my knives.

I think the real problem is that VG10 is stainless and there is a heavy preference for non-stainless (myself included). I have some stainless from when I first started out and some that I get for kicks, but most of my favorites are blues and whites. I really love a nice patina and the ease of sharpening.
 
Well for any knife out of China you should exert caution. It’s not quite the point of the discussion though, and moreover, I don’t think it influenced how VG-10 is perceived in places like here because people here won’t buy Chinese thinking it’s the real thing.

If talking absolutes I think Shun comes out as the traumatic experience of the steel per excellence. It’s got to be the most widely sold VG-10 by far... as well as very probably the most widely sold J knife, period.
 
I dont think I would say they are a pita. Just not enjoyable. Not a metallurgist, but I think the stainless elements add to the gumminess on the stones. If you have stones that gunk up quick (naniwa ss), you will hate it. A sandy stone will fair better.

I also don't mind them in use. Vg10 responds quickly to a ceramic rod (if you use a white rod, it will turn it grey immediately). It has nice toothiness.

I think vg10 is many peoples first foray into our world, and they just don't know what the heck they are doing, so they blame the misuse on the steel.
 
I dont think I would say they are a pita. Just not enjoyable. Not a metallurgist, but I think the stainless elements add to the gumminess on the stones. If you have stones that gunk up quick (naniwa ss), you will hate it. A sandy stone will fair better.

I also don't mind them in use. Vg10 responds quickly to a ceramic rod (if you use a white rod, it will turn it grey immediately). It has nice toothiness.

I think vg10 is many peoples first foray into our world, and they just don't know what the heck they are doing, so they blame the misuse on the steel.

Very wise opinion. +1
 
I dont think I would say they are a pita. Just not enjoyable. Not a metallurgist, but I think the stainless elements add to the gumminess on the stones. If you have stones that gunk up quick (naniwa ss), you will hate it. A sandy stone will fair better.

I also don't mind them in use. Vg10 responds quickly to a ceramic rod (if you use a white rod, it will turn it grey immediately). It has nice toothiness.

I think vg10 is many peoples first foray into our world, and they just don't know what the heck they are doing, so they blame the misuse on the steel.

I agree. I don't buy stainless for myself anymore but I have owned several mass produced VG-10 knives over the years. Shun, Tojiro, and others. I still keep a 180mm VG-10 gyuto in my 6 slot block at home because it is my wife's all time favorite. I have fixed and sharpened dozens of others for coworkers, friends, and family. If I am making a suggestion to an amateur cook or a newbie pro-chef then I will usually suggest VG-10. Edge retention is decent and the stainless is near bullet proof. Ginsanko or AEB-L might be better and easier to deburr but will usually be more expensive too. VG-10 may not have the greatest sharpening feeling on the stones, but I will take it over the X50CrMoV15s of the world 7 days a week. A little more prone to microchipping, but in general will hold a much thinner edge that requires very little maintenance.
 
VG-10 is a bit different than other ones where the dulling curve is concerned. Comes crazy sharp from the stones, loses that extreme sharpness quite rapidly and stays sharp at a lesser level almost forever. Don't expect to restore that original sharpness with a simple touching up.
 
VG-10 is a bit different than other ones where the dulling curve is concerned. Comes crazy sharp from the stones, loses that extreme sharpness quite rapidly and stays sharp at a lesser level almost forever. Don't expect to restore that original sharpness with a simple touching up.

Very true. VG-10 is weird. Maintains 99% sharpness for seconds. Maintains 75% sharpness for months.
 
I agree. I don't buy stainless for myself anymore but I have owned several mass produced VG-10 knives over the years. Shun, Tojiro, and others. I still keep a 180mm VG-10 gyuto in my 6 slot block at home because it is my wife's all time favorite. I have fixed and sharpened dozens of others for coworkers, friends, and family. If I am making a suggestion to an amateur cook or a newbie pro-chef then I will usually suggest VG-10. Edge retention is decent and the stainless is near bullet proof. Ginsanko or AEB-L might be better and easier to deburr but will usually be more expensive too. VG-10 may not have the greatest sharpening feeling on the stones, but I will take it over the X50CrMoV15s of the world 7 days a week. A little more prone to microchipping, but in general will hold a much thinner edge that requires very little maintenance.

Once again a very wise statement. I seem to recall you making the same argument in another couple of threads. Nice of you to repeat here.

What you say of course cuts right into what @NO ChoP! said... nice to see a convergence of informed positive opinions. It also cuts into my very limited experience that a cheap Takayuki VG-10 pretty much sharpened like AEB-L - with perhaps a bit more work involved in deburring, but it's not like AEB-L is even close to a Carbon in that aspect neither. I didn't get that gummy impression so much, but of course most of my experience with hard SS are with Shapton Pro and even soft SS barely feels gummy on those. I've experienced gummy only when trying to sharpen a couple of very old, ill-maintained, fatigued Victorinox. Raising a burr is easy as pie just like my experience of AEB-L and swedish carbon. Hairy consistent burr with one, perhaps two passes if it's thin enough behind the edge.
 
A question I might have while there are a couple very experienced members/sharpeners present. Either good or bad, does VG-10 endure its qualities on the long run? More or less so than others? From my experience of how crappy a soft SS becomes when fatigued, I'm thinking it might become a real huge PITA if VG-10 does that. Would perhaps explain why so many sharpening opinions are negative - I see a lot of members here sharpening knives for others, some of these old, most of these not treated very well.
 
VG-10 is a bit different than other ones where the dulling curve is concerned. Comes crazy sharp from the stones, loses that extreme sharpness quite rapidly and stays sharp at a lesser level almost forever. Don't expect to restore that original sharpness with a simple touching up.

Cuts into @Larrin recent steel comparison where VG-10 had about the best retention score among like 20 other steels...

Thank you my friend for sharing this element.
 
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A question I might have while there are a couple very experienced members/sharpeners present. Either good or bad, does VG-10 endure its qualities on the long run? More or less so than others? From my experience of how crappy a soft SS becomes when fatigued, I'm thinking it might become a real huge PITA if VG-10 does that. Would perhaps explain why so many sharpening opinions are negative - I see a lot of members here sharpening knives for others, some of these old, most of these not treated very well.

I bought my wife's knife as a wedding present. Tomorrow will be 11 years. She uses it everyday. I sharpen it about twice per year.


How does that compare to R2?

I have never owned anything R2. I'm sure I have sharpened some over the years and it sharpens nice but I have low standards. About the only thing I don't like the feel of sharpening is really cheap stainless. Like restaurant supply stuff. "Nice stainless" to me, feels much more crisp and raises a burr way easier than the soft crap. I can't speak to the edge retention of R2 long term. It definitely holds a fresh edge longer than VG-10. I am not sure about working edge retention.
 
I think R2 in @Larrin testing performed very good - somewhat on par with expectations with heat treat. However I seem to remember there was one of the powdered SS and some of the semi specifically that had poor performance relatively.
 
Recently I was able to acquire a used CATRA machine, so I heat treated just about every knife steel I had, made 57 knives with the help of knifemaker Shawn Houston, and tested them all to see which cut the longest. For a few of the steels I did multiple heat treatments to look at a couple variables and to see the effect of hardness. I also compared edge retention and toughness to see which steels have the best balance of properties. Testing the Edge Retention of 48 Knife Steels - Knife Steel Nerds

That's 48 steels. Worth looking at.

My biggest surprise was how poorly AEB-L performed. Found it strange since mine do keep an edge long time. But even Victo do... thing is I learned to cut with less possible amount of contact, seldom slice dragging on the board, and if perhaps a lot more than the average home user (most outside of places like here use food processors and other tools to cut so much stuff) I still don't use so often as a home cook.
 
I bought my wife's knife as a wedding present. Tomorrow will be 11 years. She uses it everyday. I sharpen it about twice per year.

I may have missed seeing it, but maker? This sounds like the kind of knife I need to buy my relatives they have horrible stuff and I curse them every time I'm in their kitchens.
 
I may have missed seeing it, but maker? This sounds like the kind of knife I need to buy my relatives they have horrible stuff and I curse them every time I'm in their kitchens.

I don't know the maker. I bought it from the Japanese Knife Company in London long before I knew much about Japanese knives or knife forums. It's very similar to a great number of mass produced stainless clad vg-10 knives on the market.

https://www.japaneseknifecompany.com/knives/western-knives/tamahagane-collection.html

I did a rehab thread on it a few years ago here

https://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/threads/advice-sought-on-rehabbing-damascus.40357/
 
That's 48 steels. Worth looking at.

My biggest surprise was how poorly AEB-L performed. Found it strange since mine do keep an edge long time. But even Victo do... thing is I learned to cut with less possible amount of contact, seldom slice dragging on the board, and if perhaps a lot more than the average home user (most outside of places like here use food processors and other tools to cut so much stuff) I still don't use so often as a home cook.
FWIW, the finely grained AEB-L isn't particularly abrasion resistant. If you use it mainly for push cutting that might be less relevant to you. More important factors then are edge stability and the quality of the cuts.
 
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So far I had 3:
- yoshihiro vg10 - very early purchase, was a fine knife for the price, I'd still recommend it. It got plenty sharp for me back then. Steel isn't why I sold it.
- yu kurosaki fujin vg10 - pretty great knife all around, a beautiful thing in hand, steel isn't why I sold it.
- Saji vg10 - pretty awesome knife, though a touch thicker then I'd like and handle is thinner then I'd like .. steel is not what makes this knife not perfect.

All of the above are at least reasonably reputable knife brands, I have not had experience with poor vg10, but I assume that will really be obviously bad judging by all the hate.

In general, a vg10 by a good maker is not quite r2 level, or aeb-l .. but the difference is quite minor for an occasional home cook.
Though even I can notice that VG10 is a bit harder to get sharp, it doesn't _feel_ sharp for as long (as r2/aebl) and feels kinda boring on stones.
With all that .. steel is rarely a deal-breaker for me. I mean, If I can have a Maumasi only in vg10, I won't say no ;p
 
Going by a lot of opinions once the initial hate has passed... VG-10 has a case for a home user than won’t sharpen much if any... as long as it’s sharp ootb... and also in pro environment as a « lay there go-to knife » in an attempt to not dull your better edges on undeserving preps. If heat treated well it will do well, but I understand why some people will hate it in use as it does seem to lose the primary keeness within a single simple prep.

Seems like Shun can implant only half the potential, but otherwise I don’t see much of a case against decent knifemakers using it, as I couldn’t verify from any answers or other thread that a maker was really lame at it except perhaps factory mass-produced

But still I can’t see it as a desirable steel even when done well. Losing keeness fast and not responding so well to a stone touch up is kind of lame - and has been reported by several members here or elsewhere.
 
I am pretty sure most KKF feedback on vg10 were for the Japanese version.

the feedback depends on your reference points. It’s great when I moved to vg10 from German knife, it seems to have stayed sharp forever.

It’s not so great after I moved to carbon, it’s a lot harder to sharpen well, takes much longer time & still can’t get as sharp.
 
If I were to try and sum up what I've gathered, I'd probably use an expression like "It's nowhere near bad, BUT..."

And while I'm nowhere near interested in doing a statistical analysis, this "BUT" seems to be threefold, and in a somewhat correct decreasing order of magnitude as follow:

- Sharpening or especially deburring has proven to not be the easiest job, but in absolute it's more about the process being tedious, boring, and in some cases bordering on infuriating. Still to some extent some users, either less experienced or even more experienced sharpeners aren't satisfied with the results, leading into the two next "but"...

- Achieved sharpness might not be fully satisfying with any unit, but mostly it seems to be the "inconsistencies" of the steel that will provide different sharpening experiences with different units or at different moments in time with one unit, that users ultimately find irritating - whereas in their experience just about any good carbon, good semi, better SS alternatives to VG-10, get much more consistent results. Hence, and in some ways cutting into the first "but", an obvious problem there that may be the biggest cause of alike irritation is the fact that one cannot rely on a progression/technique that one has efficiently developed to work consistently with specific steels/stones.

- "Ideal" achieved keenness won't be kept long, and to some extent the steel doesn't respond so well to stone touch ups, which, although the steel keeps decent cutting abilities for a good while, will never create an enticement, a thrill, a love that exist for so many other steels that are highly sought after around here. This point may cut into the previous "but" where technique / use / cutting surface may create such a quick loss of keenness that the user may be inclined to think he just can't reach satisfying sharpness, although in reality he did a fine job out of it.

Does this seem to tally with the knowledgeable crowd sharing various experiences here on KKF?
 
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I know it's been discussed quite a bit around here, but I'd like to centralize as many opinions as possible about it in the same thread.

I think the question that bugs me the most is where you guys place value of a VG-10 knife. I encounter many of them on the market obviously, and surprisingly many of them at quite a high pricetag. From reading many comments around here, I had somewhat unconsciously determined a price threshold I wouldn't cross for it - say 200$ US or so for the usual Gyuto 210-240 landmark, and ideally much less expensive might tilt me towards buying one - the likes of Tojiro DP is correctly priced and is recognized to be decent.

Some knives offered at higher prices though come from reputable makers, and have characteristics I like very much.

I personally have only used and sharpened a Takayuki Damascus. Wasn't so hard to get sharp - wouldn't know about the quality and consistency of the heat treatment on those though.

I hope to get as much of your take on the matter as possible - just anything beyond the common line we already know: the bad ones are a PITA to sharpen.

Thanks!!

i'm gonna condense the last 15 years of vg10 talk for you.

vg10 is chippy : final edge was ground on belt grinders and therefore overheated and basically rehardened but not re-tempered, therefore brittle :)

(just sharpen it 2-3 times and it goes away)

you cant deburr vg10 properly: vg10 is not some magical ultra tough steel. almost all soft german ss behave the exact same way. you just have to deal with it properly. until it done! everything under 60hrc and ss is the same **** more or less.

-----

vg10 is actually quite stainless, quite tough, and quite abrasive resistant, and takes a quite fine edge and holds it, like 3-4k depending.

other than that it behaves like all other ss knife steels. no more no less. **** in - **** out. just like with everything.
 
vg10 is a very good baseline for ss imo. most people want a knife that you dont have to resharpen every week, and it should not rust. and it should not chip out easily. vg10 is one of the best combos of this. and the japanese knew it. **** they ordered it. this is what they wanted. because this was what was needed in the market. and now everyone complains... go figure.
 
and there is also another underdog steel. aus8. yeah aus8. goes up to 60 hrc. imo much better than all sandik steels. and tough as nails. i did a beer can stress test on 2 aus8 blades. very hard to chip imo. yet still h0olds a good edge. maybe 65% as long as r2 and srs15. but it only takes 1/10 as long to get back in business when sharpening. so for me its a win-win. vg10 is also a win-win over r2 and similar. if you account for sharpening time.
 
Although I respect some of the points made in the first of three as being "true" by force of tons of posts I read, and where two of three pretty much recaps what I said about five posts backwards, the chippy aspect comes back about specific brands mostly, and is also deemed to be a bit of an infatuated proposition by many knowledgeable members, hence I didn't include it. Also, because I remember one year back when I was a total, just a total noob with 30$ knives, that the many reports of Carbons being brittle, prone to chips, kept me away from carbons for a while. I've yet to have seen a knife chip under my hand, from mass produced VG-10 to a Blue 2 that was banged away by a grocery bag, the edge landing 15mm deep under the sink outlay, that I had to pry it out, and find the knife intact, and not only that, still cutting along the entire edge, specific point of entry included. And I'm certainly no knifeskills God.

Also, that you seem to miss the finer points made and repeated once you get over the obvious trending of bashing on VG-10.
 
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