your take on natural drugs: weed, shrooms, ayahuasca, cactcii and so on.

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regarding the mythical ego death. this is where you end up if you take a lot of/too much of, i guess, any psychedelic.

its gets weirder and weirder until it just overloads your mind. and from what i have read, its the state where you simply stop understanding that you are who you are, or a human at all, you simply dont know/understand that you exist anymore. so for all practical purposes you think you are dead. i dont even know if one can "think" in the regular sense at that point. you might just be able to observe. i have also seen it described as "the void".

i think other drugs are capable of this too. different sleeping pills and similar stuff. it might not have any kind of healing effect after though.
 
i think other drugs are capable of this too. different sleeping pills and similar stuff.
Nah the sleeping pills just knock you out. Have you ever been fully under for surgery? It's like that - You wake up afterwards and have a hole in time that your brain has nothing to fill. Hardly an overload of the mind, more of a quiet shutdown.

Maybe @Nemo can get involved in this, he might know a bit about some of this stuff... :p
 
i have heard stories about "ambien", some pretty wild ones.
its the 50th most commonly prescribed drug in the US.
 
this is not something I would chase unless you are very grounded & comfortable in your reality, have a good pool of experience with lesser dosages, and are in a loving, safe, and supportive environment. You have expressed how you fear it's not worth the gamble - so I mention this more for anyone who happens to be browsing and feels similarly.

For sure (at least for me!).


Every report I have read on the experience of ego death emphasizes the very 'real' sensation of death. Meaning that your life, your connection to your family & your loved ones, your hopes, dreams, and ambitions are all fading away and not coming back. That is a terrifying thing to read and write out, but I have to feel that barely scratches the surface of what actually going through the experience feels like.
what i have read, its the state where you simply stop understanding that you are who you are, or a human at all, you simply dont know/understand that you exist anymore.


I know I used the phrase 'ego death' previously... 'ego dissolution' seems more modern. I wouldnt be surprised if this was a deliberate choice by modern advocates to steer the language away from negative connotations. Losing the boundary between an internal identity and the external world would no doubt be disorienting. It could be down right terrifying. But people also seem to describe the experience using language in common with the experience of being 'connected'. After all, if you strip away perceived differences between yourself and others (or things)... wouldn't you feel you shared more in common? Maybe you could see all the external things you worried about were internal manifestations. I dunno! I am an armchair scientists... (thats got to be annoying!).

Either way... I am very fascinated by it but I think it underscores the importance of having a guide/supervision. While apparently hallucinated symbols (doors, walls, monsters) can be terrifying, a compassionate guide can help you confront them. Anecdotally this can be cathartic.

Medical studies have shown psilocybin can help treat fear and lead to durable change. The oft quoted example is the cancer patients: "High-dose psilocybin produced large decreases in clinician- and self-rated measures of depressed mood and anxiety, along with increases in quality of life, life meaning, and optimism, and decreases in death anxiety" [ref]. The article says the experience weren't guided but there was a large amount of preparation: "preparation meetings before the first session, which included discussion of meaningful aspects of the participant’s life, served to establish rapport and prepare the participant for the psilocybin sessions". Also after sessions: "meetings after sessions generally focused on novel thoughts and feelings that arose during sessions". A similar study is currently being conducted in Australia.

These drugs create a heightened state of suggestibility. I rather suspect that if you had decided to do a guided experience and started with an objective like "I want to confront my fear of cancer/death", the guide could 'bend' your trip in that direction. And of course there is the self-placebo of thinking you might discover an answer to that questions in the first place. Again... the anthropology side is interesting here. Do shamans employ things like cold reading or knowledge of the person to force a narrative during the trip?



Makes me curious though... I'd like to see what happens if an unimaginative, stubborn and stone-cold sceptic takes one of these drugs!!
 
when you write ego-death, is that literal or just a phrase? Some of these drugs can help identifying the ego, yet IMO it does not go away or dies. Being able to see the ego for what it is may (MAY) help folks to deal with their fears better and it can help clarify goals. Ego-death, IMO, is only for a few, thus enlightened people but even those usually struggle with their ego for life, alrhough they are far better at identifuing their ego at large ;-)
 
Nah the sleeping pills just knock you out. Have you ever been fully under for surgery? It's like that - You wake up afterwards and have a hole in time that your brain has nothing to fill. Hardly an overload of the mind, more of a quiet shutdown.

Maybe @Nemo can get involved in this, he might know a bit about some of this stuff... :p
Yeah, that's a good description of benzos.

So there are a few diferent categories of medicines/ drugs being mentioned here.

Our understanding of how the brain works is pretty incomplete so necessarily our understanding of how these drugs affect the brainis also pretty incomplete.

Most slepers are benzodiazepines. They have amnestic and sedating properties. You are probably not gonna remember some or all of the experience. Great for acute anxiety in a single dose. The sleep you get from them is super low quality. They are used a fair bit in anaesthesia as a pre-med and in ICU sedation while on life support. Terribly addictive in medium to long tem use. Please don't get hooked on these. They prevent learning to a large degree. Produce a lot of disinhibited behaviour.

Zopiclone is an atypical sedative. It was originally marketed as a kind of benzo without the benzo problems. In reality, not so much. Lots of reports of people doing really stupid disinhibited stuff on zopiclone.

The only psychadelic that I have seen used is ketamine, often used as an atypical analgesic but also as an anaesthetic agent in some circumstances. It causes confusion, vivid dreams and hallucinations in some people. Occasionally this is terrifying but sometimes just weird. Some people cope well with it, others hate it.

In higher doses, it produces an unusual type of anaesthesia. Breathing tends to be maintained but the reflexes that protect from inhaling vomit are not and it's well known to produce death by choking on vomit in this situation. As an added "bonus", it produces excessive salivation. Never give it to dog or it will choke on its own saliva.

There is research interest in its use (and indeed in some other psychodelics) in some specific types of major depression, as part of a highly controlled psychotherapy regimen. This is definitely not currently mainstream medicine and you'd be mad to self-administer pschadelics outside of a professionally tailored psychotherapy regimen on the basis that you feel a bit depressed or even severely depressed. Lots can go wrong.

The ego disolution caused by psychadelics has beed described as removing the consciousness' tethering to the physical body. It has contributed to fascinating speculation about the nature of consciousness and even the nature of reality in fields as diverse as spirituality, nueroscience, psychology and even physics.

I've never taken psychadelics myself and am not considering doing so. If I was, I'd be making bloody sure that it was in a safe, controlled environment with someone who I trusted who really knew what they were doing.
 
The only psychadelic that I have seen used is ketamine, often used as an atypical analgesic but also as an anaesthetic agent in some circumstances. It causes confusion, vivid dreams and hallucinations in some people. Occasionally this is terrifying but sometimes just weird. Some people cope well with it, others hate it.

In higher doses, it produces an unusual type of anaesthesia. Breathing tends to be maintained but the reflexes that protect from inhaling vomit are not and it's well known to produce death by choking on vomit in this situation. As an added "bonus", it produces excessive salivation. Never give it to dog or it will choke on its own saliva.

US law enforcement is using ketamine to control suspects. In most cases it is administered after the suspect is already in restraints. Laws differ by state, most states require that paramedics administer the drug but I believe there are situations where law enforcement without much in the way of medical credentials is administering it. This is without consent by the subject or any knowledge of the person's medical history.
 
Interesting thread. Fun to see the different perspectives out there. Reading some myths and bad science here that I haven't heard since D.A.R.E. in elementary school. 🤣

I love drugs. They're incredibly fun, and exceptionally beneficial when used in a thoughtful and responsible manner. Like anything in life they are best when enjoyed in moderation. Funny how many folks say fearful and ignorant things about "drug" users, and then go home to drink themselves in a stupor multiple nights a week, "cannot function without coffee", or need cigarette breaks to regulate their mood.

I cultivate and grow cannabis for my own consumption, and smoke everyday. I happen to be well read, intelligent, and successful in both private and professional life. Go figure. Growing cannabis is a super fun and rewarding hobby. Smoking it is, too. ☺

I have used LSD maybe 7 or 8 times, twice with a very high dosage. A bunch of fun trips, and a couple that were eye opening. I much prefer magic mushrooms though, which I definitely do not grow myself (😏🤥) and have used a pretty fair amount of. Mushrooms are incredible - life altering in the best of ways.
 
US law enforcement is using ketamine to control suspects. In most cases it is administered after the suspect is already in restraints. Laws differ by state, most states require that paramedics administer the drug but I believe there are situations where law enforcement without much in the way of medical credentials is administering it. This is without consent by the subject or any knowledge of the person's medical history.

why are they doing this?? to calm them down?
why not just chloroform them like back in the good old days?
 
US law enforcement is using ketamine to control suspects. In most cases it is administered after the suspect is already in restraints. Laws differ by state, most states require that paramedics administer the drug but I believe there are situations where law enforcement without much in the way of medical credentials is administering it. This is without consent by the subject or any knowledge of the person's medical history.
Sounds crazy to me.

As you allude to, lots that can wring from a safety point of view.

There are alsoalso stories of gangs taking K before a fight because the analgesic effect makes them feel invincible.
 
LSD, macro or micro depending on situation) is by far my favorite "drug"...p cubensis, and mj are also very good. Legalize it...

As to weed getting stronger, I call bs. First I smoked in the 70's was Columbian gold, Panama red, black Jamaican...new strains can be high thc but most are bred for terpines nowadays. Legal here recreational and medical. Genetics are good but folks have no clue about the curing process...I ***** all the time. Will say that prices here are low...oz's at 150 down to 1/8's for 25. Don't so much care for all the concentrates but they've got the edible thing figured out.
 
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In theory to prevent self-injury, but in practice it is just the easiest path to a compliant subject.

i dont think ketamine is the right tool for the job. its a "dissociative" made for knocking out horses :)
if they just want a compliant subject just give them ambien. and they will tell you everything you want to know too.
 
I'm going to preface this by saying that I started using drugs far, far, too early. I was already doing psychs by my early teens.

This is largely in part to the DARE program. I had a few friends that were smoking weed when I was in 6th grade, a year after we got drilled with DARE. When they didn't lose their minds and murder their families, and told me they just had a great time, I decided to join in when they offered. I was immediately blown away by how hard I'd been lied to. Cannabis wasn't a gateway, the realization that adults were deliberately lying to me was. At that point I needed to know what else I'd been lied to about...

LSD is my one true chemical love. Will try oral DMT at some point, and have only one night's worth of smoking DMT, but hot damn I can't wait to get back there. I had been drinking after a shift and wound up at an after party and spent a good chunk of time blasting off here and there, but will for sure be going back sober next time. Ketamine gets a ****** rap because of the way some folks use it, but is a wildly powerful experience, especially when paired with LSD. Low dose shrooms are great fun, but I haven't gone heroic with them in a very long time. They were just too confusing and I never walked away with things to work on like I did with L. I was also a much bigger disaster back then though, so I'm eager to dive deep with a better head.

regarding the mythical ego death. this is where you end up if you take a lot of/too much of, i guess, any psychedelic.

its gets weirder and weirder until it just overloads your mind. and from what i have read, its the state where you simply stop understanding that you are who you are, or a human at all, you simply dont know/understand that you exist anymore. so for all practical purposes you think you are dead. i dont even know if one can "think" in the regular sense at that point. you might just be able to observe. i have also seen it described as "the void".

i think other drugs are capable of this too. different sleeping pills and similar stuff. it might not have any kind of healing effect after though.

This is nothing even remotely close to ego death (as was mentioned dissolution is a much better term) in my experience(s). It's the exact opposite of confusion. This isn't to say that you suddenly have all the knowledge or something, it just ceases to matter. What makes you you, the self, your consciousness melts away and what's left realizes its actually part of the consciousness. It's not that you can't think, but there's no need. There's no reason to ponder anything when you can just be, free of any need, want, desire, worry, anything. It's like being part of a stream of pure energy, and that energy is thought. Not specific thoughts (what's that, who am I, what's the definition of the word is, etc), but thought as existence. The same experience can be reached through meditation according to many, just in a slower non rocket ship way. This is obviously my subjective take. It's the most beautiful, calming, and comforting experience I've ever felt.

The attempts to get there in my late teens were anything but..my self did not want to let go, and that's the scary part.

So yeah, I guess for me it doesn't occur when you take too much, it's when you take just exactly enough, and have your **** together enough.

Bill hicks summed it up super succinctly in his bit on drugs in the news.

i dont think ketamine is the right tool for the job. its a "dissociative" made for knocking out horses :)
if they just want a compliant subject just give them ambien. and they will tell you everything you want to know too.

Ketamine was developed for, and it's most widespread use has always been, humans. It was an alternative to PCP with far less undesirable qualities. It's still the primary anesthetic for children and the elderly due to its physical safety. Ever been put under for any surgery? You almost certainly had Ketamine in the cocktail they used.

Yes, it's used for vetinary purposes as well, but it wasn't developed for that.

Sounds crazy to me.

As you allude to, lots that can wring from a safety point of view.

There are alsoalso stories of gangs taking K before a fight because the analgesic effect makes them feel invincible.

Due to the massive motor function issues that come with basically any effective dose of K, I can't see this being useful in any way. It's literally the last drug I can imagine helping in a fight lol

LSD, macro or micro depending on situation) is by far my favorite "drug"...p cubensis, and mj are also very good. Legalize it...

As to weed getting stronger, I call bs. First I smoked in the 70's was Columbian gold, Panama red, black Jamaican...new strains can be high thc but most are bred for terpines nowadays. Legal here recreational and medical. Genetics are good but folks have no clue about the curing process...I ***** all the time. Will say that prices here are low...oz's at 150 down to 1/8's for 25. Don't so much care for all the concentrates but they've got the edible thing figured out.

People are breeding for terps now, but that's the last what...six years, maybe? Three that it's blown up? You look at many years before that that selective breeding was done primarily with potency as the end goal. This isn't to say that landrace sativas aren't out there dropping dicks in the dirt, but those were also strains getting their full expression in their natural habitat. Most people in the states aren't ever going to experience a real true sativa (or narrow leaf drug variety if we're gonna get real), regardless of what the bud tender tells them it is. No one is commercially pumping out 16+ week NLD varietals, and in the states it's all hybrid at this point.

I grew for a few years, and will be getting back to it soon, but I think it's far less about people understanding about curing, and more about them just jot giving a ****. I watched so many growers rush through a quick dry/cure just because they wanted money by the time harvest was up, and knew if it looked good it would still sell.
 
Huh?

Psychedelic means « manifestation of the soul ». The interesting thing being that « mind » is a further addition originating from scientific thinking, where « soul » is much too « loaded » (with religious meanings) a word to befit scientific apparatus.

Lifting of the veil is somehow of a play with words, probably by those who advocate that drugs make for spiritual experiences. They don’t. Settings might though - if you’re soft enough that some candles and music and the likes can bewitch you into thinking you’ve had the revelation of your life.

With « manifestation of the soul », though, one can understand that, while the manifestation is as honest a representation of one’s soul as can be, it’s still far to be imparted with any kind of truth or revelation.


You seem to be confusing spiritual experience with spiritual enlightenment.

Psychedelic drugs absolutely can (can, not do) make for spiritual experiences, and that's exactly why they're been so heavily used as part of rituals for various cultures since, I don't know, forever? To say that it's simply soft people and the setting doing it is to just openly **** all over any culture with shamanic rituals, and the experiences of the untold number of humans who've taken part in such. IMO it's also exactly why we're finding them so useful as modern therapeutic tools (which one could argue is essentially what other cultures have used them as).

A person doesn't have to walk away with some truth or revelation to have a spiritual experience.
 
whats weirder: the spirit molecule or acid, in your opinion? are these similar at all?
 
whats weirder: the spirit molecule or acid, in your opinion? are these similar at all?


Keep in mind, I've got 20 years of LSD experience, and one night of drunkenly blasting off multiple times.

That said, 100% DMT. Even when I've had full hallucinations on L, meaning I'm immobile and everything real around me is gone, L still feels so much less foreign. Even in that point before ego death, but also in full blown hallucinations, L feels more grounded and based on the reality you know, but exaggerated and different.

My DMT experience could be largely shaped by reading McKenna and others before trying it, but it absolutely feels like a completely foreign dimension. I also experienced entities (what McKenna called machine elves), though we didn't communicate that I can recall. The first blast off I don't remember anything after phasing in, and phasing out. I was likely too drunk, and it too powerful. The second time is when I distinctly remember seeing the elves. They were super playful, and kind of danced aroud/toyed with me the way people not tripping sometimes do to people who are tripping if that makes any sense. They had long slender humanoid like bodies, and were wearing venetian court jester masks with long upturned noses. Think Gonzo from the Muppets but basically straight with an upswing towards the end. Also, welcoming grins on the masks, so it looked like they were laughing.

Towards the end we had decided to to just pack a huge bowl for three of us and pass it around, so I stayed sub breakthrough level (which is still fantastic), and interestingly enough, the same three entities phased into the apartment I was in. It felt like we were making it clear that we were both comfortable in the others' space.

I know how hokey this can sound to people who haven't gone that deep, but I'm just retelling the experience. I'm also not saying DMT TAKES YOU TO ANOTHER DIMENSION DOOD, but that is absolutely how it felt.

Edit: going wildly deep on shrooms felt closer to DMT than L, but they're definitely a vin diagram of where each is similar
 
i have read that some shrooms are even more powerful than a full on spirit molecule ride. those are the azurescens and cyanescens types. at high doses.
as said before i have never tried acid. and only 3g of cubensis but i had a blast. so for me its a medicine. a brain-medicine. and i know it works.

i love reading about other peoples experiences. and the more i read the more i understand that this should be completely legal. and it actually was.
 
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