Zwilling 1731 vs Miyabi 600MCD - Santoku

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iRune

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Hi - long time lurker, first time poster.
Due to a warranty claim on 3 of my Zwilling Twin Cuisines (cracked handles) I have to choose replacement knives and I would love to get your thoughts on the 2 fairly different knives that I am considdering.
I plan to trade in 3 twin cuisines for high end 1 santoku, and I have been offered to go with either the 1731 Santoku or the Miyaki 600MCD santoku.
I love the design of the 1731 but I am also looking to get my first Damascus knife some time soon, so to me they probably rank equally in terms of aesthetics.
What are the most noteworthy differences between the 2 in terms of Edge retention, performance and other stuff such as "chippyness"?
EDIT: My obvious concern is that the 1731 is very overpriced and that you pay too much for the Italian design. Unfortunately I have nowhere to try out the 2 :(
 

chinacats

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Welcome! I have no insight, but sure others that do will come in shortly.
 

CoqaVin

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I have handled one Miyabi in my life, and I liked its profile and decent sharpness, much better than their typical German line, saying that I do not know anything about the steel used in either of these knives, just the Miyabi was more to my liking, they have decent profiles
 

James

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The miyabi 600mcd should be zdp-189. I'd go with the miyabi, but if your technique is a sloppy or you cut on glass/plates, it'll chip.
 

CoqaVin

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on their website it states they us MC66 powder steel, whatever that is?
 

Mrmnms

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i am not familiar with all their lines, but I regularly sharpen several Myabi 600 series knives. They get very sharp. The steel is very hard. One comes back regularly with some tiny chips due to misuse by a customers family member. The customers like them. No experience with the 1731. At the price point, i cant imagine what more you'd be getting other than a little more exclusive line from a major knife company. For the difference in price, I'd get the Myabi and put the other money toward a real custom or something else cool. So much available through vendors and makers here in that range.
 

iRune

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Thanks for the input so far.
Where I am located (DK) the 600MCD is around 8% more expensive than the 1731 but this is largely irrelevant as I am getting a warranty replacement directly from Zwilling, not from a vendor. Thus, regardless of what I choose, I will not get any residual value as cash. Also, for this reason, I can only choose a Zwilling knife. If this had not been the case I would probably have started with a Shun or something similar.
I find the point of the brittleness of the Miyaki rather interesting. Both knives are rated at around 66 rockwell. Would you still assume that the Miyaki is more prone to chipping? I know that nice knives are to be treated with respect and care but I'd prefer not having to put up a sign in my kitchen, warning my family and guests NOT to touch the blades :D (My first Global G5 was partially ruined when a guest accidentally dropped it edge first on the aluminum corner of my sink.)
 

Mrmnms

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From what I gather Cr 30 is a low carbon high nitrogen stainless steel. The specks I read for 1731 were at Rockwell 60. Hardness doesnt tell the whole story. The 1731 is made in Germany, I believe the Miyabi is made in Japan by the parent company. If you like the knives you own, you will like these. Shun doesn't get much love here by comparison. They are both much harder and sharpened more acutely than my old Henckels.
 

iRune

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If you like the knives you own, you will like these.
"These" being the Miyaki or the 1731?
You're right about the RC 60 on the 1731 ofc, don't know where I thought I read that they were both 66. :shocked3:
I always really liked my Globals and my Henkels, I guess I just felt that maybe I am missing out by not trying something more Japaneese (read harder)
 

Mrmnms

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i grew up using Henckels, Wustoffs and Sabs. I still like using them for certain tasks. Both lines you mentioned are a step up from what you have.The guy who owns the 600 series knives formerly used 4 stars and Globals. The first time I put an edge on his 600, he was like a little kid. it was sharper than anything he ever handled. Depending on how you use your knives, and how you sharpen them, you may find it easier to sharpen the 1731. I understand the appeal of trying the superhard steel. I'm just not sure of the added benefit for most people if that's the deciding factor. I was under the impression the 1731 was a lot more money. I think you will be happy with either one. Sorry I cant be more help.
 

gic

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I just looked up the 1731 series as I had never heard of it. It's made out of a very unusual steel apparently: "cronidur 30" = "X30CrMoNi1-5-1" which Zknives says is a very high nitrogen content steel that is insanely expensive (the 8" 1731 chef lists for $449). I can't imagine a henckels knife that costs more than a Devin ITK could possibly be worth it, but I suppose since I love my ITK so much, I may be biased.

I do have a Miyabi 10" 7000mcd knife which I got very cheaply cause it wasn't selling at the store I bought it from, once I dipped the handle in plastigrip, the knife became OK to use routinely, prior to that point it was unusable because although it had a great grind, great steel and was really sharp OOB, the handle was absolutely the worst handle i had ever used on a quality knife.

Don't know anything about the handle on the 600 series which i hope is better than the one on the 7000, but since it is the same steel as my 7000, it is a great steel, not been very chippy at all for me
 

Benuser

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You might consider to have the most expensive one, and sell it. And have a look at our German counterparts, messerforum.net
 

iRune

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Thanks for your input guys, I am now a little wiser :)
Selling sounds like a clever plan but I am not sure if I'll have the guts for it once I actually hold one of them :D
Anyways, I'll report back here when I finally get one of them (they're in backorder at my local Zwilling HQ at the moment)
Again, thanks for the help - great forum :)
 

Keith Sinclair

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Not much experience with Miyabi fixed the broken tip on a students knife. Also he had micro chipping on blade edge. when I get persons who have been sharpening already ask to show me what angle on stone they use. Most all are way to high, his was low less than 10%. I showed him thinning angle at less than 5% then putting in final bevel at around 15%. He picked it up right away getting an even burr heel to tip at higher angle.

Last week he came to me and verified that the knife works fine with no chipping. I think too that he is protecting his edges from hard objects, I try to drive that message home. I had no idea that the Hrt was that high on the Miyabi.
 

krx927

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There is a huge difference in steel. For sure you need to go with Miyabi. MC66 powder steel is indeed ZDP189 and this is great steel.
I have Miyabi 7000MCD in this steel and it holds the edge really long. About the chipping: I do not have an issue with it. Of course I take care not to do stupid things with the knife like chopping bones.
The only chipping issue I experienced was when I sharpen it to 10 degrees per side. The steel just did not take it, it started to chip immediately.
Now I have it at around 12.5 degrees and it is fine.

Please not that I do not agree with gic about the 7000MCD handle. I find it quite OK and see no need for plastic wrapping. But anyway 600MCD has Western handle.
 

Knifefan

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I sharpen my zdp 189 knives (cermax, 7000 mc) with a primary bevel of 7.5 deg and a microbevel of 15 deg. No chipping issues at such angle.
 

krx927

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I sharpen my zdp 189 knives (cermax, 7000 mc) with a primary bevel of 7.5 deg and a microbevel of 15 deg. No chipping issues at such angle.
Thanks for the info. I will try it next time. I did not make any microbevel when it was at 10 deg.
 

iRune

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There is a huge difference in steel. For sure you need to go with Miyabi. MC66 powder steel is indeed ZDP189 and this is great steel.
I have Miyabi 7000MCD in this steel and it holds the edge really long. About the chipping: I do not have an issue with it. Of course I take care not to do stupid things with the knife like chopping bones.
The only chipping issue I experienced was when I sharpen it to 10 degrees per side. The steel just did not take it, it started to chip immediately.
Now I have it at around 12.5 degrees and it is fine.
Please not that I do not agree with gic about the 7000MCD handle. I find it quite OK and see no need for plastic wrapping. But anyway 600MCD has Western handle.
I gather that chipping will be a non-issue for me so I think that I'll go for the Miyabi after all. Now I just gotta wait for them to be in stock, great Christmas timing now that I think of it :)
EDIT: I'd still love to learn more about the Cronidur 30 as it seems to be the only unknown factor here.
 

Bolek

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I gather that chipping will be a non-issue for me so I think that I'll go for the Miyabi after all. Now I just gotta wait for them to be in stock, great Christmas timing now that I think of it :)
EDIT: I'd still love to learn more about the Cronidur 30 as it seems to be the only unknown factor here.
Hello from Paris, it is my first post here. Sorry for my English.

http://www.progressivealloy.com/pdf/cronidur30.pdf

Cronidur 30 is the stainless steel ! It is also very shock resistant. RHC is only 60 but it will never chip. 1731 is a beautiful European style knife.
On other hand MC66 is ultra hard RHC 66 brittle and not very stainless steel.

If I was you Zwilling 1731 will be mine. You are not going to buy such a knife otherwise. Miyabi 600MCD - Santoku does not look Japanese enough. One day you are going to buy a chosen Japanese super steel knife.
Bolek
 

iRune

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Cronidur 30 is the stainless steel ! Miyabi 600MCD - Santoku does not look Japanese enough.
To my own surprise I find your argument very appealing :D
In the end, I told them to let me know when either one of the is in stock.
This is the problem with getting stuff that you actually can't afford, the choice becomes impossible ;)
 

Knifefan

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Chronidur 30 is a nice steel with a fine microstructure. The biggest advantage is its excellent corrosion resistance, superior to most steel at HRC 60. However, it's really expensive, with no benefits in cutting performance to other steel at such HRC level, like AEB-L or 13C26. Nevertheless, if you are looking for an all purpose knife in a sleek, European design, go for the 1731.

The 600 MCD looks like Henckels' version of a Hattori KD. The Western handle actually is not at all unauthentic on a Japanese knife, as in Japan, only Wa-bochoh (single bevel edge knives) used to have a Japanese (D-shape) handle. All other knives usually have a Western handle. If you know how to deal with high HRC powder steel and how to sharpen it, I'd go for the Miyabi. The cutting performance is in a different league. Chipping is not much of an issue when adding a microbevel. And as to stainless steel, it doesn't become much more 'super steel' than zdp189.
 

James

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I found this about the steel, really interesting to a laymen but if one of the people who thinks about steels can weigh in that would be awesome

http://www.progressivealloy.com/pdf/cronidur30.pdf
looks like it has very very good corrosion resistance, but wear resistance is pretty low so edge holding will be kind of meh. Would be great knife if you worked on a fishing boat though.
 

iRune

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So, in the end I went a different route after all :knife:
Turned out that they didn't have any Miyabi in stock and I didn't feel like waiting.
Also, I ended up having to pay the difference between my 3 twins and the new knife of my choice and the 600MCD is expensive.

Seeing as the Bob Kramer Euroline Stainless Damascus was $100 cheaper than the 1731 I went with the kramer. (its also a much nicer design imo)
My normal reason to choose santoku over gyuto has to to with the (for me) bad angle on the gyuto that makes it hard to use it like a nakiri.
On the Kramer euroline however, the angle is reminiscent of a classic french chefs knife and thus, it lends itself better to the occasional "non-rocking" chopping motion.
Forgive me if I am mixed up on terminology and technique, I am sure you understand what I am trying to say regardless :dazed:
So, for 70$ I replaced my 3 broken Twins with a lovely 8" Kramer branded euroline chefs knife.
It is now the king og my kitchen, complimented by a Global Nakiri (G5), a zwilling breadknife and a Rådvad petty knife.
I couldn't be happier and I owe a great part of the outcome to this forum (I didn't even know that the kramers existed as they get little or no advertising in DK)
Great service from zwilling :plus1: and great luck on my part (I got the 3 broken Twins second hand for free ;)) )
Merry christmas and a fappy hanuka ) :shocked3:
 

krx927

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Hello from Paris, it is my first post here. Sorry for my English.

http://www.progressivealloy.com/pdf/cronidur30.pdf

Cronidur 30 is the stainless steel ! It is also very shock resistant. RHC is only 60 but it will never chip. 1731 is a beautiful European style knife.
On other hand MC66 is ultra hard RHC 66 brittle and not very stainless steel.

If I was you Zwilling 1731 will be mine. You are not going to buy such a knife otherwise. Miyabi 600MCD - Santoku does not look Japanese enough. One day you are going to buy a chosen Japanese super steel knife.
Bolek
Thanks for all the info and I 100% agree with your claim "Miyabi 600MCD - Santoku does not look Japanese enough. " Even my Gyuto 7000MCD, whcih is a really beautiful knife, looks a little different that traditional Japanese knives.

But juts one comment, 7000MCD in ZDP189 for me is COMPLETELY stainless! I never had not even a spot of something similar to rust on it. I please mind that I treat it like that i.e. sometimes I just leave it unwashed on the counter even for days (don't kill me gents, but that was the objective when I was buying this one - to have at least one gyuto that I do not necessary needs to wash immediately after use -> important specially for my wife ;))
 

Bolek

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But juts one comment, 7000MCD in ZDP189 for me is COMPLETELY stainless! I never had not even a spot of something similar to rust on it. I please mind that I treat it like that i.e. sometimes I just leave it unwashed on the counter even for days (don't kill me gents, but that was the objective when I was buying this one - to have at least one gyuto that I do not necessary needs to wash immediately after use -> important specially for my wife ;))

I have had different experience with Zwilling Cermax ZDP 189 some spots on the edge. It was in my country house in Britany –quite wet climate.
7000MCD in ZDP189 : 7000MCD has a cladding so ZDP189 core appears only on the edge.
 
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