Decent entry-level 10" chefs knives on a budget?

Hey all, I was hoping I could pick your brains and collect the juicy goo of your collective knife knowledge.

I've been using a 6" supermarket brand chefs knife that I've found far too small for far too long, so I'm currently looking to upgrade to a 10" chefs knife. My budget is rather modest at around £55/$85, as I've already spent a fair chunk of change on waterstones. I don't mind the extra care needed for carbon steel knives, and perhaps at my price point, carbon steel would offer better edge retention and easier sharpening compared to the stainless steel offerings. So far the following knives have tickled my fancy:

K-Sabatier Au Carbone 25cm - £55

Tojiro Shirogami ITK Gyuto 240mm - around £55 inc customs fees from Japan

Would these make for good entry-level knives or is there something better at that price point? Maybe something significantly cheaper like a Victorinox Fibrox-handled knife would be a better bet? Is it even advisable to get a Japanese knife as your first 'serious' kitchen knife, or would it be wiser for a noob to stick to conventional European designs?

Cheers

Welcome to the forums.

Japanese knives certainly demand more respect than their German counterparts, but the fact that you show caution says a lot. So long as you're not hacking up bones or frozen food or using it as a doorstop you'd probably be alright. Just pay attention to your technique and don't be afraid to learn from your mistakes.

There's good and bad with the two you're looking at. The Sab is a good all around knife, very forgiving, and responds well to a steel. It'll probably see that steel and stones quite often though. The ITK will get as sharp as you want it to with zero effort, but the cladding is amongst the most reactive I've ever used. Neither are terrible, but there are plenty of options in your price range.

Here's a good thread, might help you decide further.

http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/s...-Carbon-Battle-Fuji-FKH-vs-Suisin-High-Carbon

I would advise against the Tojiro as the quality control can be very bad. The one I owned had a blade road that looked like a roller-coaster (multiple overgrinds) and the kurouchi is crap. I would personally prefer the Sab, but I would think that someone here may have a recommendation that fits your budget in a decent quality J-knife. I'm not sure of the price but a Tadafusa may fit?

I'm guessing (it's not to hard) that you're in Europe? Shipping, duties, VAT will make a difference in recommendations for both knives and vendors.

There is a "first knife questionnaire" at the top of the page. If you'll fill that out folks can make recommendations that are (mostly) tailored to your requirements.

And welcome.

Fill this out so we can better help you.

LOCATION
What country are you in?



KNIFE TYPE
What type of knife are you interested in (e.g., chef’s knife, slicer, boning knife, utility knife, bread knife, paring knife, cleaver)?

Are you right or left handed?

Are you interested in a Western handle (e.g., classic Wusthof handle) or Japanese handle?

What length of knife (blade) are you interested in (in inches or millimeters)?

Do you require a stainless knife? (Yes or no)

What is your absolute maximum budget for your knife?



KNIFE USE
Do you primarily intend to use this knife at home or a professional environment?

What are the main tasks you primarily intend to use the knife for (e.g., slicing vegetables, chopping vegetables, mincing vegetables, slicing meats, cutting down poultry, breaking poultry bones, filleting fish, trimming meats, etc.)? (Please identify as many tasks as you would like.)

What knife, if any, are you replacing?

Do you have a particular grip that you primarily use? (Please click on this LINK for the common types of grips.)

What cutting motions do you primarily use? (Please click on this LINK for types of cutting motions and identify the two or three most common cutting motions, in order of most used to least used.)

What improvements do you want from your current knife? If you are not replacing a knife, please identify as many characteristics identified below in parentheses that you would like this knife to have.)

Better aesthetics (e.g., a certain type of finish; layered/Damascus or other pattern of steel; different handle color/pattern/shape/wood; better scratch resistance; better stain resistance)?

Comfort (e.g., lighter/heavier knife; better handle material; better handle shape; rounded spine/choil of the knife; improved balance)?

Ease of Use (e.g., ability to use the knife right out of the box; smoother rock chopping, push cutting, or slicing motion; less wedging; better food release; less reactivity with food; easier to sharpen)?

Edge Retention (i.e., length of time you want the edge to last without sharpening)?



KNIFE MAINTENANCE
Do you use a bamboo, wood, rubber, or synthetic cutting board? (Yes or no.)

Do you sharpen your own knives? (Yes or no.)

If not, are you interested in learning how to sharpen your knives? (Yes or no.)

Are you interested in purchasing sharpening products for your knives? (Yes or no.)



SPECIAL REQUESTS/COMMENTS

Thanks for the welcome and suggestions so far! Here's the first knife questionnaire:

LOCATION
UK

KNIFE TYPE
chef’s knife

Are you right or left handed?
Right handed

Are you interested in a Western handle (e.g., classic Wusthof handle) or Japanese handle?
Not experienced enough to have a preference

What length of knife (blade) are you interested in (in inches or millimeters)?
10"

Do you require a stainless knife? (Yes or no)
No

What is your absolute maximum budget for your knife?
£55/€75 (including shipping)

KNIFE USE
Do you primarily intend to use this knife at home or a professional environment?
Home use

What are the main tasks you primarily intend to use the knife for
Slicing, chopping, and mincing vegetables, chopping herbs, slicing boneless meat

What knife, if any, are you replacing?
6" cheapo supermarket chef's knife

Do you have a particular grip that you primarily use?
Pinch grip

What cutting motions do you primarily use?
Push-cutting, rocking, and slicing

What improvements do you want from your current knife?
Larger size, easier to sharpen, better edge retention. Good food release would be a bonus. Other than that I don't have any specific improvements in mind.

KNIFE MAINTENANCE
Do you use a bamboo, wood, rubber, or synthetic cutting board?
Yes, mainly synthetic

Do you sharpen your own knives? (Yes or no.)
Yes

SPECIAL REQUESTS/COMMENTS
I would need to order from a UK or EU retailer. I would also consider ordering from a Japanese or American retailer if shipping costs aren't too high - it would need to be around $60 including shipping. After VAT and handling fees that would work out to my budget of £55.

Hmmm, those Fujiwara and Suisin knives mentioned in the linked thread seem quite a bit out of my price range. Tadafusas too.

Re. Tojiro and quality control. Is it something to be concerned about in all their models or is it just the ITK that has that issue? I just found this Tojiro DP F-809 after a lengthy search and it seems to be quite highly regarded as the best bang-for-one's-buck Japanese knife, and probably better value than the carbon K-Sab:

http://www.globalkitchenjapan.com/?pid=1484954

Hey Rusty, people love that Tojiro for an inexpensive knife...it was the Shirogami (white steel) knife that you referenced in your first post to which I was saying that I and others have experienced issues with qc.

Cheers

K-Sabatier Au Carbone 25cm - £55

Click to expand...

Do it. Do it. Do it.

This forum has a strong preference for Japanese knives, but I think almost everyone would still agree that those K-Sabs kick ass. I bought three and had them custom engraved for my lead line jockeys - the fit on finish on each was superb, they are stupidly easy to sharpen and maintain, and the profile is legendary among knives. They are the quintessential French chef knives and have been held in high esteem for over a hundred years for a very good reason.

You could probably track down a Tojiro or Fujiwara in the same price range, but it's unlikely they'll have the same level of QC and polish as the K-Sab.

chinacats said:

Hey Rusty, people love that Tojiro for an inexpensive knife...it was the Shirogami (white steel) knife that you referenced in your first post to which I was saying that I and others have experienced issues with qc.

Cheers

Click to expand...

Cool, thanks. Looks like the Tojiro DP F-809 240mm is now the primary contender to the K-Sabatier Au Carbone 25cm.

SousVideLoca said:

Do it. Do it. Do it.

This forum has a strong preference for Japanese knives, but I think almost everyone would still agree that those K-Sabs kick ass. I bought three and had them custom engraved for my lead line jockeys - the fit on finish on each was superb, they are stupidly easy to sharpen and maintain, and the profile is legendary among knives. They are the quintessential French chef knives and have been held in high esteem for over a hundred years for a very good reason.

You could probably track down a Tojiro or Fujiwara in the same price range, but it's unlikely they'll have the same level of QC and polish as the K-Sab.

Click to expand...

Thanks for the advice. That's certainly convincing praise, and practical benefits aside, the idea of owning something similar to what the French chefs of yore used does have a certain romantic appeal. One question though: aren't carbon steel knives a bit of a hassle to maintain in a pro kitchen environment? I would have thought that most people who earn a living from cooking would prefer stainless steel.

Rusty said:

One question though: aren't carbon steel knives a bit of a hassle to maintain in a pro kitchen environment? I would have thought that most people who earn a living from cooking would prefer stainless steel.

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Only if they're sloppy cooks. This is one of those tropes about carbon knives that baffles me: if you're in my kitchen, and you leave your knife on a board all soaked in dirty bits of residual smegma--wet and gross and stuck with the funk of the shrimp you cut twenty minutes ago--we're gonna have words, stainless or not. Carbon doesn't require more maintenance; it punishes you for slacking on the maintenance you should be doing anyways.

Keeping your tools clean and dry isn't extra effort, it's standard operating procedure. Do it every time and you'll never have a problem with carbon, whether you're cooking for one or cooking for a thousand.

I was in the same shoes as you and i went for the Tojiro DP gyuto.
You can find pretty much any shape and size on the on the amazon from the DP line apart from the 240mm gyuto. (You gotta go on the bay if you want this size in particular but don't want to pay much more.)

shownomarci said:

I was in the same shoes as you and i went for the Tojiro DP gyuto.
You can find pretty much any shape and size on the on the amazon from the DP line apart from the 240mm gyuto. (You gotta go on the bay if you want this size in particular but don't want to pay much more.)

Click to expand...

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Tojiro-Ki...hash=item419bc1f259:m:mACP_GH48-FKmCAnDdGov7A

There is the 240mm Tojiro DP for £43 incl free shipping to the UK.

Thats just stupid value, this was my first japanese knife 10 years ago, I have better knives now, but for the money, this will totally blow you away.

I'd recommend the Victorinox 47521. Relatively budget friendly.

I recently made a career change into the culinary world, and this knife remains my favorite after 6 months of heavy use and abuse. Whether I'm slicing a cake, carving a turkey, or chopping mushrooms, this is the knife I reach for first. (It's also the knife the other cooks want to borrow most often.)

Most importantly, the knife is extremely sharp - I remember opening the package and finding a knife that was literally razor-sharp. I sharpen it at least once a day, and it seems to re-sharpen more quickly and stay sharp longer than my other knives.

playford said:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Tojiro-Ki...hash=item419bc1f259:m:mACP_GH48-FKmCAnDdGov7A

There is the 240mm Tojiro DP for £43 incl free shipping to the UK.

Thats just stupid value, this was my first japanese knife 10 years ago, I have better knives now, but for the money, this will totally blow you away.

Click to expand...

Tried to order it, got a message about ebay users in the UK and Ireland not being allowed to buy knives. I thought that pesky no-knives rule only disallowed listing knives within the UK, not buying internationally. I ended up ordering the Tojiro DP from another site for £45.

I went with the Tojiro over the K-Sab because my sharpening stones arrived today, and I realised that sharpening knives with bolsters is a bit of a PITA. As a sharpening noob I'd rather make things as easy for myself as possible. :laugh: