Beginner Kitchen Knives

I'm looking to get some new knives for cooking. I am not a professional cook, and these knives will only be used a few times a week. Looking for something comfortable, easy to maintain, and won't break the bank. I don't have any experience sharpening knives, but I suspect I can learn if it is necessary. I'm fine with piecing together a set from multiple manufacturers. Correct me if I'm wrong but the only knives I should start out with are a chef's knife and pairing knife. I would prefer to pay at max around $100 dollars for the chef's knife. Really looking for the best bang for my buck, looks don't really matter to me. I would prefer them to be made in a first world country.

I currently have these knives: http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00005Y7AU/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20 and have never been happy with them. They seem heavy in the hand and very slippery when wet. The only knife I don't have trouble using from this set are the bread knife and short bread knife, as they are cutting bread, which is fairly easy.

Searching around has gotten me a lot of mixed information of knives and I'm looking for some input. I don't know much about the difference between western and Asian knives. These are the brands that are not beyond my price range that I have seen recommended: Mundia, Dexter-Russel, Tojiro, and FKM. I'm looking for some specific knife recommendations as well, rather than just brand.

Thank you in advance,
Jak

Hard to go wrong with this as a starting place for your budget: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000UAPQGS?keywords=tojiro%20gyuto&pebp=1447794772595&perid=7DEM4K27WE48SW2TPEDA&qid=1447794768&ref_=sr_1_1&sr=8-1

Knives don't stay sharp forever, so consider sharpening as well. Learning how to freehand sharpen a basic working edge on a $40 double sided (1000/6000 grit) Japanese waterstone is pretty straightforward, despite all our endless arguments here about nuances.

I think you will find it a big improvement over Farberware....

A Tojiro DP and a Fujiwara FKM are pretty solid knives, you can't really go wrong there.

That said, decent knives can be had for a lot less, too. For example the Wüsthof Silver Point series. Pretty good geometry and profile. The steel is inferior of course, but as you have said you need practice with sharpening anyway.

The Victorinox knives are no longer really worth what is being charged for them, after their growth in popularity over the recent years.

Fujiwara FKM is a great entry/budget knife (I have a 150 mm petty), but the steel is a bit soft for my taste, so while it resharpens easily, it doesn't hold an edge that long (it will compared to a European knife, but not most other Japanese blades). The Tojiro DP at $50 (for a 210 mm gyuto) is the bang for your buck winner in price/performance ratio, and I have one as a beater/guest knife. While it doesn't fail to impress me with how well it cuts for that price, personally I find it a bit "unexciting in my hand". It gets the job done well, but I'm not enjoying it or as "one with the knife" like I am with the other knives in my collection.

If your plan is to get one good knife with your hard-earned bucks and have that last you for a long time (i.e. you don't get bitten by the bug and start collecting and trying more knives), with a $100 budget, I would recommend going a little nicer for something that will not only perform pretty well, but also feel good and comfortable in your hand, so it's more fun when you do use it.

My top suggestions would be:
Masahiro MV Honyaki 210 mm gyuto
Sakai Takayuki 17-layer damascus VG10 210 mm gyuto

Both are just under $100, and will serve you well. My only hesitation with the Masahiro is that at least with the one I received, it was sharpened pretty well, but there is still a burr on the edge, so in such a case, it would to be deburred (one of the final parts of the normal sharpening process) before using. Possibly this is an isolated case, and other knives may vary, I don't have enough experience to say. I can confidently say the Takayuki will be ready to go out of the box, as I have multiple experiences to draw from (not just for myself, but when I order them on behalf or gifts for others).

Some additional suggestions: I also noticed on that site, they have a Yaxell plain-clad (non-damascus layers) VG-10 210 mm gyuto for $75, and they are nicely finished and cut well, but I find Yaxell chef knives too handle heavy and not balanced to my liking in the 8" size (it's ok at the 10" size). There is also the Shun classic 8" chef knife that they are promo'ing on sale for $99.99 for the holiday season/next few months. At that price, it's a pretty good value, but I (and most of us here on KKF) just don't like the German-shaped big belly profiles on most Shuns. I also find there's a big difference in nimbleness with the handle, balance, weight compared to my top two suggestions above. But you can easily walk into a number of stores near you like Williams Sonoma or Sur la Table and give the Shun (and some of their other knives there) a try. They won't have anything that feels similar in hand to the ones I suggested though...most Japanese knives found in big stores here in US are made a bit heavier (probably because their marketing tells them less-informed consumers here think weight = quality).

Make sure you learn to sharpen. It's more important than the knife. Any cheap knife can be made usable if sharp and a $500 wonder knife is usless if dull. Buy a Dexter Russell and learn to sharpen on it, then get somthing nice.

Bill.

I do a charity knife sharpening event every year and have had the "opportunity" to handle and sharpen the Faberware, Soft, gummy, no fun to work with and I think all mentioned above would be a sizeable upgrade.

But the best two knives in the intro or market(IMO) are the Gesshin Stainless avail at JKI and the Suisin Western Inox avail at Korin. Both of these retailers are site supporters with impeccable reputations.

Good luck in your search.

Tojiro DP 3 piece set for 125 is a can't miss! 210 gyuto, 120 petty and 90 petty! Cktg.

nt

Chicagohawkie said:

Tojiro DP 3 piece set for 125 is a can't miss! 210 gyuto, 120 petty and 90 petty! Cktg.

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Why would anyone want a 120 and a 90 petty...seems you're paying to help someone unload some excess stock...

chinacats said:

Why would anyone want a 120 and a 90 petty...seems you're paying to help someone unload some excess stock...

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Whoops. My bad, 150 petty and not a 120 petty. For a 120 this is a great deal for some entry level knives that I would leave on the counter for anyone to use.

Chicagohawkie said:

Whoops. My bad, 150 petty and not a 120 petty. For a 120 this is a great deal for some entry level knives that I would leave on the counter for anyone to use.

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OK, so now why would anyone want a 120 and a 150 petty...seems you're paying to help someone unload some excess stock...jeeeez...how about a petty, gyuto and a bread knife, maybe a petty, gyuto, and a parer...both would make more sense than someone buying 3 knives to get two that are useful...:laugh:

As a point, I have ~10 gyutos, 2 pettys and about 6 parers (among more)...I use all gyutos, one petty and a couple of the parers (different shapes).

One final note, as I've never seen a DP petty recommended around here...may not be bad but certainly no one would have a use for two of them, especially someone buying their first real knives...:lol2:

Personally I don't think a beginner buying knives needs a petty. Especially if your starting small and building a collection on a budget. I'd recommend a decent 210 or 240 guyto and a king 1000/ 6000. Everything you need to start and then buy other knives as you need them. To me a set is silly and you will inevitably end up not using all of them or want something different or better. I'd say start with the gyuto and a cheap disposable paring knife. If you find you use it a lot then upgrade. But you might find that your cutting a lot of bread or breaking down a lot of chickens so a different knife would be a better choice. Just my two cents

How many here have started with a Torrheeho only to be selling it and shopping for a knife three months later? Sure for 50 bucks its serviceable - after thinning and sharpening - but you can skip that step...

The tojiro and victorinox are perfectly usable knives. People seems to forget that some of the best food in the world (price per plate), some of the most lauded chefs in their city, use run of the mill dexter or victorinox or maybe wustie classic or henckel 4 star... At the end of the day a knife is a knife, if you want to become a knife fanatic that's cool too but nobody is realistically going to argue that you can't get from A to B in anything but a (insert whatever your dream car is here).

Thanks for the suggestions.
I think I'm going to start out cheap with the Tojiro DP Gyutou, any recommendation on size?
Also, any stone recommendations? Are there any combo stones that have a fine and rough side and budget freindly?
Also, how accurate is this video on how to sharpen: [video=youtube;rTKV5-ZSWcE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rTKV5-ZSWcE[/video]
Any other sharpening tutorial recommendations?

Watch these instead, https://www.youtube.com/user/JKnifeImports

Jon has lots of really good videos that people here will reference from time to time, and Jon himself posts here and is fairly active in the sharpening forum. He's a really nice guy and quite helpful. People also really like his products. I personally learned by watching these videos and would recommend them over any others. Very in-depth and he responds to questions on all of his social media (you can even ask questions in the youtube comments about a specific video).

If you are cooking at home in a small space probably 210mm gyuto, but if you are adventurous or if you are working in a professional kitchen 240 or 270mm is standard. A smaller knife is easier to use and sharpen in my opinion, so if you have no knife skills you might want to start with a smaller knife, however a longer knife is usually more efficient- for instance your 210mm knife will not usually cut a head of romaine lettuce or celery stock in half with a single push cut, it will probably require two... Longer knives can also have a longer flat spot which can make for more efficient cutting with certain style (push cut)... However the Tojiro I think have no real flat spot to speak of, that I recall. Good luck.

linecooklife said:

Personally I don't think a beginner buying knives needs a petty. Especially if your starting small and building a collection on a budget. I'd recommend a decent 210 or 240 guyto and a king 1000/ 6000.

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+1. Do not get more than one 'upscale' knife at a time. 210 may be a good length as it is very versatile. Tojiro DP was mentioned, I would add Suisin INOX. The INOX are thinner and lighter knives, the DP are more stout. Both are excellent for the price. If you would prefer carbon knives than Zakuri are very good value. If you can keep them clean and dry, than sharpening will be much more enjoyable.

1000/6000 combination stone is a good start and all you need to maintain edge that does not need too much thinning or repair. There are several, the KING is the way to go if you are on budget. Later add something in in t 300-500 range. I would suggest you browse around here on the stones.

Watch these instead, https://www.youtube.com/user/JKnifeImports

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The best videos out there. To point, with all details explained, and not too long.

Tojiro DP are so cheap now, quite a bit less than a Victorinox rosewood & is a better knife. The western handles on the Tojiro's are durable. As mentioned If you have limited space a 210. If have decent space 240mm is best for cutting about everything.

If you don't have a lot of experience with knives and your knife skills have some ways to improve, I would recommend starting out with a 210 mm.

Probably should go with a 210 then. Although now I'm considering http://www.hocho-knife.com/sakai-ta...cus-hammered-tsuchime-chef-knife-gyuto-210mm/ as well.
Also, should I get a western handle or Wa handle?

Western versus WA is a matter of taste. WA handles are usually much lighter, mainly because there is much less metal in them (the tang is thin and goes only some 2/3 of the length of the handle. Also - if you like using pinch grip than the WA handle (im my opinion) feels better in hand. The fact that WA handles are lighter means that the center of mass of the knife is shifted forwards what gives the knife in this size (210 or 240) more 'chopping' feel. For my personal feel the Tojiro western handles are bit too robust and heavy, but that is just me.

The linked knife looks nice, but I learned to get careful with VG-10. Not every company does good job on the heat treat of the steel (example: Shun classic knives can be very chippy, personal experience) and I know first hand that Tojiro got it right and their VG-10 holds good edge and is rather robust.

If I were you I would also check out the JKI offers - Gesshin stainless, Gesshin Uraku (white #2) or Suien VC are around your price range and since it is Jon who is offering them, I am sure they are worth checking out. Just to widen your options And not to sound exclusive - I would advice you to check the offers of other KKF vendors.

What Matus said. If you like the hammered, dammy look the G Gobei (sp?) is an inexpensive offering from JKI.

Well said Matus. I picked up a Gonbei 150 petty and am really impressed with the steel, profile and FF. Very surprised how well it cuts and slices. I'm convinced that anything Jon sells is going to be impressive for the $.

I did look at JKI, including the hammered and non-hammered knives, however most of his offerings seem to be out of stock.

Also, I notice that the Gonbei knives from JKI, as well as Sakai Takayuki 45-Layer Damascus, are Sweedish Stanless Steel as opposed to the VG10 found on most of the other knives in this class, how do the steels compare?

Well, the Swedish stainless is most probably 12c27 and that is a really nice steel. Not the most fancy one, but well known and very nicely preforming (when heat treated well, but that goes without saying). But if I were you I would not get hooked on certain type of steel.

A more general comment - often the knives in lower price category were developed with less experienced users in mind and thus their blades were tuned (profile, steel, heat treat) more towards toughness than ultimate edge retention that are easier to use and take care of. That does not mean that you are getting yourself a soft or thick knives, but also not super hard, super thin and thus possibly delicate knife that requires experience to use and sharpen.

I think your best bet is to call or email Jon and ask him about what you expect from the knife and he can give you more advice.

On a first order, while there are some different qualities between the steels, these knives are all hardened to around HRC 60.

I will just choose shun 8'' classic chef knife, the edge is better compared to tojiro, fit and finish is better as well. You will also need some wetstones to maintain your knife.

I have never heard it said that a Shun classic is superior in any way to a Tojiro, unless you happen to like faux Damascus and a very German profile.



Rick

Don't like the Shun classic German profile either, but I must concede the fit and finish is superior to the Tojiro. The Damascus is of course just ornamental, but of note the pattern actually makes scratches visually less noticeable/distracting (and light scratches come out easily using Cape Cod polishing clothes) than the Tojiro soft stainless cladding. Based on the ones I've come across, the Shun is usually a bit thinner behind the edge, but that German profile is a big minus in my book. Both are competent cutters, but neither are among my favorites. I do have a Tojiro DP 210 mm as a guest knife and it's one of the knives I travel with though. If I didn't have a Kramer Meiji 8", I would probably enjoy having a Shun Fuji 8.5". I do really like the Shun parers, and I have a Shun classic 4" and a Shun Elite 3.5". Also have a Shun Elite 9.5" suji that I like — and this one is actually shaped like a sujihiki and is light and very thin, and it's totally different than the slicers in other Shun lines.