Toyama vs Watanabe

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Asteger

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No big analysis here, but pict says a lot - Watanabe on bottom, both are 210, Toyama's new and Watanabe from 1.5 years ago maybe. I'm wondering if someone knows or it's been revealed what the connection is between the two?

They seem to be cut in the same shape so identical profiles, same handlemaker, ... The Watanabe's a bit thicker along the spine, less finely finished, and mine has a keyaki (sp?) handle.

Toyama%20v%20Watanabe_zps1viweksw.jpg
 
If I am not mistaken, I believe reading somewhere they have a master–apprentice relationship.
 
According to Maksim's website, the Toyama smith is 75-76 years old. How old is the Watanabe smith? Any info?
 
Maxim knows what it is behind the scene, but you have to press him hard. Toyama also made his old zensho blue 2 gyuto which looks practically the same.
 
tjangula said:
If you read the product descriptions:

from Watanabe
http://www.kitchen-knife.jp/special/nigiribasami.htm

And JNS
http://www.japanesenaturalstones.com/toyama-noborikoi-mukimono-135mm/

It seems very probable that they are associated. Both form Sanjo and the ages are about the same too (I imagine the one page isn't as recent). Some knives in the newest buy thread also have the same box IIRC.
Click to expand...

"Watanabe family is a blade smith tribe. Ken Toyama is our relationship. He is 73 years old and his father was my great grand father's apprentice."

well here's the description in the Watanabe's website you linked.

that's kinda neat that Watanabe's Great grand father taught Toyama's father and Toyama's 73 years old now
 
toddnmd said:
I thought Shinichi was quite a bit younger than 75 . . .
Click to expand...

He's no spring chicken. Looks to be in his 50s minimum. 60s maybe? We could always send him an email asking; would probably be one of the less common questions these knifemakers get.
 
... Oh, could have added this on the post above. 65ish I'd say:

009.jpg
 
Asteger said:
... Oh, could have added this on the post above. 65ish I'd say:

009.jpg
Click to expand...

I was reading the bio on his webpage and I'm thinking Shinichi may be younger

oregon.jpg


If you have a look at this webpage http://www.kitchen-knife.jp/bioeng.htm I think the individual is the other picture is his father or other relative who was perhaps the forefront of Watanabe Blade prior to Shinichi :dontknow:
 
tjangula said:
I was reading the bio on his webpage and I'm thinking Shinichi may be younger
Click to expand...

I think you're right! I was suprised seeing the photos and should have checked more. Yeah, I think the guy above is Iwao, Shin's father. Wonder if he is involved in the production (still)?
 
He is hands down the best guy to deal with, and I am a very loyal customer due to his efforts and correspondence. Makes a pretty mean knife too and I trust him as a stone dealer.
 
tjangula said:
I was reading the bio on his webpage and I'm thinking Shinichi may be younger

oregon.jpg


If you have a look at this webpage http://www.kitchen-knife.jp/bioeng.htm I think the individual is the other picture is his father or other relative who was perhaps the forefront of Watanabe Blade prior to Shinichi :dontknow:
Click to expand...

The one in the bottom photo is the one I met both at the Oregon Knife show and it Atlanta at the Blade show. He stamped my name on a blade at the Oregon show.
 
Asteger said:
No big analysis here, but pict says a lot - Watanabe on bottom, both are 210, Toyama's new and Watanabe from 1.5 years ago maybe. I'm wondering if someone knows or it's been revealed what the connection is between the two?

They seem to be cut in the same shape so identical profiles, same handlemaker, ... The Watanabe's a bit thicker along the spine, less finely finished, and mine has a keyaki (sp?) handle.

Toyama%20v%20Watanabe_zps1viweksw.jpg
Click to expand...

Does anyone know what the kanji closer to the handle means?
 
Von blewitt said:
Seems a bit superfluous
Click to expand...

Yup, but that's. Why it's often not used. Old Shigs had it, not now.

But - same meaning, different feeling - sounds more impressive if translated as 'Produced by Watanabe' etc. (Ie. 'This is a special product/item') Sales spin
 
Asteger said:
No big analysis here, but pict says a lot - Watanabe on bottom, both are 210, Toyama's new and Watanabe from 1.5 years ago maybe. I'm wondering if someone knows or it's been revealed what the connection is between the two?

They seem to be cut in the same shape so identical profiles, same handlemaker, ... The Watanabe's a bit thicker along the spine, less finely finished, and mine has a keyaki (sp?) handle.

Toyama%20v%20Watanabe_zps1viweksw.jpg
Click to expand...


Out of curiosity I emailed Shinichi who is always quick to respond.

He explained that Toyama is his master and they work closely together.

He also has learned from other masters including his father who is retired, another Toyama and others on polishing, Mr. Hasegawa on knives, and Chandra Shekhar Sharma on machine tools.

That is a picture of him from the Oregon show.

It is interesting to hear how he continually refines and improves his craft.
 
Jkts said:
Out of curiosity I emailed Shinichi who is always quick to respond.

He explained that Toyama is his master and they work closely together.

He also has learned from other masters including his father who is retired, another Toyama and others on polishing, Mr. Hasegawa on knives, and Chandra Shekhar Sharma on machine tools.

That is a picture of him from the Oregon show.

It is interesting to hear how he continually refines and improves his craft.
Click to expand...

Well I guess that clears it up and explains the similarities. Cool tidbit of info too
 
And the Oregon photo was taken several years ago. I wish he could have made it an annual event but kitchen knives don't have much draw for that crowd. When I put things out there you always get the impression show goers think they should all be thrown in a big box marketed "your choice, 50 cents!" And I've had some pretty interesting Japanese maker's blades on my table. "Takeda, why I can get 12 knives in a set down at Wal-Mart that look like that for $24.95!" I wonder why Bob Kramer quit coming? :)
 
How different are the grinds? I have had my Watanabe pro 240 for a few months and at this point it's just about my favorite cutter. I'd be interested in a performance comparison if there are significant differences.
 
lucabrasi said:
How different are the grinds? I have had my Watanabe pro 240 for a few months and at this point it's just about my favorite cutter. I'd be interested in a performance comparison if there are significant differences.
Click to expand...

If you're asking me, I can't really compare too much. For one thing, I've had the Toyama for less than 2 weeks and just used it a bit.

You can see my Watanabe choil shot above and I think it gives an idea of that one, but you'll already know that knife. The back is quite flat I think and the blade is thicker with a thicker spine. The Toyama is thinner, on the back of the blade there seems to be more of a bevel, a slight bevel up to 1 cm from the edge, while the front of the blade seems flatter than the W, with both looking like they've got the s-grind. I don't know how this all affects things, but the Watanabe Pro 210 is a heavier knife than the Toyama 210, and having used the Toyama a bit it somehow seems to release food better despite looking/feeling similar in grind on the face, and maybe even being flatter. Could perhaps just be that the nice Toyama food release is helped by a different polish. I don't know, but the current polish on my W is less fine which shouldn't be a disadvantage. Oh, and taper isn't really different beween the 2 as in there isn't really a big taper on either; solid spine, which I kind of like.

I don't mean any of this to sound definitive, just impressions - grind and geometry, I guess. I love both knives, the disadvantage being that they're cousins if not siblings and so I've got 2 knives which are fairly close. I hope to keep each for a long time, though, and so it's not a bad thing as you never know what will happen.
 
Great info, thanks. Yea I suppose that last part where the knives are siblings is what I was interested in, and the rest of the detail described how.

I love my Watanabe. Plainly love it. Nice to see the Toyama seemingly playing the same game.
 
The Toyama, at least the one I have, will probably be more in the sweet spot for most people, between a wafer-thin laser (hate that term) and a, I dunno, Wustoff or something - a hefty workhorse. The Watanabe leans toward the horse side, and the Toyama feels light to me but I think really would be in the middle for most people. If it helps, I sold a Shigefusa kasumi because it was just a little too insubstantial for me, and the Toyama just has enough and a nice balance.

That's just now. In a couple months I could well be pulling out chukabocho again and shelving the Toyama or Watanabe because they feel like puny petties in comparison. :dontknow:
 
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