hammer vs pinch grip

just read a blurp that goes 'hammer grip aka noob grip' (im quoting here, unfortunately).

i know pinch grip is useful and it depends on the ingredient and the knife (lets say a gyuto). I was taught to use hammer grip since it allows you to use the entirety of the edge, and slicing motion better. Pinch grip is reserved for dense and hard ingredients that require force.

What are your thoughts?

BLee said:

just read a blurp that goes 'hammer grip aka noob grip' (im quoting here, unfortunately).

i know pinch grip is useful and it depends on the ingredient and the knife (lets say a gyuto). I was taught to use hammer grip since it allows you to use the entirety of the edge, and slicing motion better. Pinch grip is reserved for dense and hard ingredients that require force.

What are your thoughts?

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I'm a nobody and definitely not a high-output cook, so take my opinion with a grain of salt. I think grip should be entirely dictated by what seems appropriate. I default to pinch grip most of the time, but I can see situations where I'd want my hand farther back and use a more hammer-style grip. I can even appreciate the "finger on the spine" grip sometimes for some knives and some cuts. The pinch grip might be the best default grip, but I think it's more important to be thoughtful than it is to follow absolute prescription.

BLee said:

just read a blurp that goes 'hammer grip aka noob grip' (im quoting here, unfortunately).

i know pinch grip is useful and it depends on the ingredient and the knife (lets say a gyuto). I was taught to use hammer grip since it allows you to use the entirety of the edge, and slicing motion better. Pinch grip is reserved for dense and hard ingredients that require force.

What are your thoughts?

Click to expand...

are you sure you've not mixed up the advice in your mind... defaulting to a hammer grip isn't really the status quo in the west. Usually I would default to a pinch grip and switch to a hammer grip if I'm hacking up a spine for fish stock or trying to "chop a watermelon" (bartenders smh). I do not do a hammer grip for slicing.

I've never understood how you "lose length" pinching the blade, just because your finger is on the face of the blade doesn't render the cutting edge underneath unusable...

I have noticed that the Japanese use a kind of modified hammer grip with the index finger along the face or spine of the blade when using a yanagiba, but I am not a trained sushiman so I don't use my knives other than how I was taught: pinch grip affords more control and better dexterity, always claw your off hand.

Obviously the technique for a chinese cleaver is quite different as well.

:groucho:

XooMG said:

I'm a nobody and definitely not a high-output cook, so take my opinion with a grain of salt. I think grip should be entirely dictated by what seems appropriate. I default to pinch grip most of the time, but I can see situations where I'd want my hand farther back and use a more hammer-style grip. I can even appreciate the "finger on the spine" grip sometimes for some knives and some cuts. The pinch grip might be the best default grip, but I think it's more important to be thoughtful than it is to follow absolute prescription.

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^this

I use pinch most of the time but for whatever reason there are (those few) times when it just seems more sensible to hold in a hammer grip, usually they're awkward cutting maneuvers for me which don't make up the majority of what I do as a home cook

The hammer grip is used when you hold the knife further back on the handle to shift the weight of the knife forward towards the tip. If you use the "rock-cutting motion", the tip of the knife never leaves the cutting board. This affects the balance of the knife as the board supports some of the weight by the tip of the blade. For this reason it is very common to hold a hammer grip while rock-cutting to move the weight of the knife forward.
This could also explain why some people might think you'd "lose length" pinching the blade, as the tip of the knife becomes useless during rock cutting and such people would be inclined to use the part of the blade that's closer to the heel.

Also there are some jobs where you need to use a blade exactly like a hammer: for example, cracking open the husk of a coconut.
I can't imagine using a pinch grip to do that!

spoiledbroth said:

I have noticed that the Japanese use a kind of modified hammer grip with the index finger along the face or spine of the blade when using a yanagiba

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This grip is more of a modified pinch grip, rather then a modified hammer. It's mostly used when the blade is to be cutting at a bias to the cutting board, and the same grip can also be used to hold the knife at a steady angle during sharpening.

Jon explains the grip well in this video from 1:52 to 2:16:
[video=youtube;GB3jkRi1dKs]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GB3jkRi1dKs[/video]

And here it is again, used this time to slice fish with a yanagiba:
[video=youtube;7UPB94pMGqU]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7UPB94pMGqU[/video]

Kippington said:

The hammer grip is used when you hold the knife further back on the handle to shift the weight of the knife forward towards the tip. If you use the "rock-cutting motion", the tip of the knife never leaves the cutting board. This affects the balance of the knife as the board supports some of the weight by the tip of the blade. For this reason it is very common to hold a hammer grip while rock-cutting to move the weight of the knife forward.
This could also explain why some people might think you'd "lose length" pinching the blade, as the tip of the knife becomes useless during rock cutting and such people would be inclined to use the part of the blade that's closer to the heel.

Also there are some jobs where you need to use a blade exactly like a hammer: for example, cracking open the husk of a coconut.
I can't imagine using a pinch grip to do that!



This grip is more of a modified pinch grip, rather then a modified hammer. It's mostly used when the blade is to be cutting at a bias to the cutting board, and the same grip can also be used to hold the knife at a steady angle during sharpening.

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this is essentially what I said in my post, though I'm not sure how a pinch grip compromises the tip of the knife in a "rock cutting motion" (it doesn't). Maybe I'm not reading your post correctly. You can see rick theory mince herbs with a pinch grip if you look on youtube- I don't think rock chopping necessitates a hammer grip nor do I think a hammer grip is the best way to go about doing that- but to each his own!

Good call about the yanagiba technique. Hadn't noticed what the thumb was doing on the other side of the blade until you pointed it out.

I've seen some Asians that hold the knife with the thumb on the spine, like in this video.

https://youtu.be/z6AL-7v0apI

I was watching a Japanese friend that was doing this, and my instinct inside at first was to correct her to pinch grip, but instead watching her just fly through product was something to behold...seems like she knew what she was doing

BTDT. Always used a modified "hammer grip" with my fairly dull knives and never thought much about it, until I started getting into cooking more and decent knives.

Now I find myself using a pinch grip nearly all the time, and wanting longer knives (all of mine are 8" or so except the cheap Korean "cow knife", which is shorter). Pinch grip gives MUCH more control over the angle and motion of the knife.

Now I need to get rid of the sharp edges on the Tojiro DP -- just about removed the skin on my forefinger cutting up candied peel for Xmas baking.

Peter

Pinch grip 95% Point grip 5% Hammer Grip 0%

I think the hammer grip term is a little confusing. I know a bunch of people who use pinch grip on the handle, so they aren't touching the blade at all. I think this is better for most people than the conventional pinch of the blade as it doesn't encourage as much downward pressure. Obviously there are going to be people who are more comfortable pinching the blade and can do so without unnecessary pressure. Personally I use the point grip for 85%, the hammer (handle pinch not like a baseball bat) 15% and pinching the blade 0%

ThEoRy said:

Pinch grip 95% Point grip 5% Hammer Grip 0%

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^ This!

I've not thought a lot about it but I use a hammerish grip when using a breaking knife or scimitar to make big pieces into small pieces.

daveb said:

I've not thought a lot about it but I use a hammerish grip when using a breaking knife or scimitar to make big pieces into small pieces.

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Yup. I use a wide variety of grips when breaking down proteins with boning knives/scimitars. The latter really made my brain stutter when I first started using them. A scimitar has a very dynamic blade shape, and requires frequent re-adjustment of one's grip to truly appreciate the versatility of the profile, especially considering it's a knife that is designed for mostly powerful cuts while still being adept at fine movements if used properly. In a matter of very few cuts I might switch from hammer to point to thumb forward to pinch.

A gyuto on the other hand, well, I honestly can't see a case for the hammer grip in any situation. Even with the above stated rock chopping herbs motion I tend towards a shallow pinch grip with my ring and pinkie extended for balance. Pinch grip=control=precision.

If you think you need to hammer something, you might wanna grab a cleaver...

yup, pinch grip for most Japanese knife, Point grip for narrow knife! only use Chinese cleaver with Hammer Grip when chop up a whole chicken/duck & separate fish head/ lobster.

I generally use a pinch grip but put my pointer finger on the spine when I'm tying to slice something. I feel like having my pointing finger on the spine helps (and in writing this may seem backwards) stabilize the blade more when making slices. This applies to say a hunk of meat, lettuce on the other hand I still use a pinch grip. I do mainly grab the knife with my middle finger and thumb though so the pointer is more of a stabilizer in either use I feel. Hammer grip pretty much never happens unless I'm putting the knife through stress or a weird angle and want to power through.

You do not pinch grip for most Japanese knives. There is a reason the D-shaped handle is there. It fits along the inside ridge if your index finger. As a retired chef was telling me, you can tell a young inexperienced Japanese chef by how he holds his knife. The higher up the younger, the further back more experience because he has learned to use his wrist and the blade with letter effort to his arm. He can cut all day with little fatigue.
But it's not s hammer grip. You don't grip a knife like your swing it like a hammer

Do you have a better visual explanation/demonstration?

Currently at parents in law for New Years. No knives with me. Only my stones.

But read an older thread that discusses the same thing.
http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/showthread.php/676-Japanese-chefs-NOT-using-pinch-grip

maybe this picture illustrates:

the point grip in the foreground and the chef in the middle is doing a kind of pinch on the handle, it looks like to me anyway.

The chef in the middle is an example of what I was explaining. It's not a pinch grip where one would choke up on the blade. He is he holding the handle with his index finger rested on the shinogi of the d shaped handle.

osakajoe said:

The chef in the middle is an example of what I was explaining. It's not a pinch grip where one would choke up on the blade. He is he holding the handle with his index finger rested on the shinogi of the d shaped handle.

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Oh okay. I kind of naturally use a similar grip when slicing proteins thinly and carefully on a bias like these sushi chefs are doing...your hands kind of get in the way against using a pinch grip, this just seems most efficient. Though I don't use that grip for cutting vertically on hard veggies, for that it's typically pinch. Although I sometimes use this grip pictured below for push cutting...I don't know the name of it, but I find it gives me a lot of precision and control.

osakajoe said:

The chef in the middle is an example of what I was explaining. It's not a pinch grip where one would choke up on the blade. He is he holding the handle with his index finger rested on the shinogi of the d shaped handle.

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Ah ok! Great!

I think this is a grip many of us have used when trying to do "board work" with a petty knife or "slim" slicing knife, that's where I recognize it from anyway. Still waiting for your photos of how to balance the towel on the arm for proper technique my friend! :wink: After the new year I hope

Speaking of sushi/sashimi, here's a pic of my appetizer tonight (received a couple fresh abalones from Australia from a friend). Please go easy on my amateur skills :cheffry: (and sorry for slight tangent)

osakajoe said:

The chef in the middle is an example of what I was explaining. It's not a pinch grip where one would choke up on the blade. He is he holding the handle with his index finger rested on the shinogi of the d shaped handle.

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Hmm, just as an experiment I tried using a grip like this, holding it further back on the handle and chopping straight up and down on a carrot, and with a small wrist action and letting the weight of the knife (with the balance point well forward of my hand) do most of the work...huh, whadaya know? It seems quite effortless and also I get very well controlled (I'm also closing guiding the blade with my left hand in a claw), extremely thin and uniform slices...I think I might practice with this more the next little while and see how I like it, but so far I'm somewhat wowed by this cutting technique.

spoiledbroth said:

Ah ok! Great!
Still waiting for your photos of how to balance the towel on the arm for proper technique my friend! :wink: After the new year I hope

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Not sure if these make any sense. The towel is being pinched between my elbow and rib area, not with the arm. Using more wrist action and the curvature of the blade. Try to imagine the knife is "landing" just like the motion an airplane would.

the above post by osakajoe is the closest to what i meant by hammer grip. very relaxed grip that allows the bite and length of the knife to do the cutting.

Remind me not to ask you to help me do carpentry blee

oh yes, thank you very much osakajoe!!! very informative as always happy new year!

spoiledbroth said:

Remind me not to ask you to help me do carpentry blee

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haha i know the term hammer grip is misleading... but im rubbish with handiwork anyways. happy new year!