New knife for french noob

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jbou2

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A few months ago I had a GAS about knife, ut i found myself reasonable and bought a cheap chef knife at IKEA (210 siltbar) and an small double stone. I intended to learn sharpening before getting a real J knife, but my combination stone was to small and I didn't flattened it so 1000 grit would need hours of flattening now :)
Now i'm still nor very good at sharpening but I decided to go and get a Gyuto.

Her we go for the questionnaire :

LOCATION
France

KNIFE TYPE
What type of knife are you interested in (e.g., chef’s knife, slicer, boning knife, utility knife, bread knife, paring knife, cleaver)?
210 Gyuto

Are you right or left handed?
Right

Are you interested in a Western handle (e.g., classic Wusthof handle) or Japanese handle?
Never tried Japanese handle, Idon(t know if I'd like it

What length of knife (blade) are you interested in (in inches or millimeters)?
210. I was also looking at 240, but my current board is quite small (13'' x 10") and I never had 240 knife

Do you require a stainless knife? (Yes or no)
Yes

What is your absolute maximum budget for your knife?
130$ but less is possible ;)


KNIFE USE
Do you primarily intend to use this knife at home or a professional environment?
Home cook only

What are the main tasks you primarily intend to use the knife for (e.g., slicing vegetables, chopping vegetables, mincing vegetables, slicing meats, cutting down poultry, breaking poultry bones, filleting fish, trimming meats, etc.)? (Please identify as many tasks as you would like.)
lots of vegetables, and a bit of meat (poultry, pork, veal or beef)

What knife, if any, are you replacing?
Ikea Slitbar 210 mm

Do you have a particular grip that you primarily use? (Please click on this LINK for the common types of grips.)
Beginning with pinch grip

What cutting motions do you primarily use? (Please click on this LINK for types of cutting motions and identify the two or three most common cutting motions, in order of most used to least used.)
Push cut often, trying to learn rock motion, and slid for some meat or fish

What improvements do you want from your current knife? If you are not replacing a knife, please identify as many characteristics identified below in parentheses that you would like this knife to have.)
Lighter, easier to sharpen

Better aesthetics (e.g., a certain type of finish; layered/Damascus or other pattern of steel; different handle color/pattern/shape/wood; better scratch resistance; better stain resistance)?
Not particularly inters tested in this

Comfort (e.g., lighter/heavier knife; better handle material; better handle shape; rounded spine/choil of the knife; improved balance)?
Don't know

Ease of Use (e.g., ability to use the knife right out of the box; smoother rock chopping, push cutting, or slicing motion; less wedging; better food release; less reactivity with food; easier to sharpen)?
Yes

Edge Retention (i.e., length of time you want the edge to last without sharpening)?
Yes


KNIFE MAINTENANCE
Do you use a bamboo, wood, rubber, or synthetic cutting board? (Yes or no.)
classic wood, end grain board to come

Do you sharpen your own knives? (Yes or no.)
Yes, Ninawa SS 1000 grit, and a small 3000

If not, are you interested in learning how to sharpen your knives? (Yes or no.)
Yes

Are you interested in purchasing sharpening products for your knives? (Yes or no.) Yes maybe a 3000 or 4000 stone

I first looked at Fujiwara FKM and Misano molybdenum as entry level.
Then a bit more expensive, Misono 440 may be nice, but is it worth 40$ more?
What you guys think about this knife?
 
That budget will have you looking in the range of Tojiro DP or HSPS. As for board size, I currently (hopefully not for more than a few more months) use an 11"x14" board with a 240mm, so it wouldn't be too bad for you (but nothing wrong with a 210mm if that works for your uses). Handles... western vs wa makes way less difference than I expected.
 
salut,
It is not easy: 130$ for a good 210 is little. But here are some link to good knife for reseller that are either in Europe either that make good shipment conditions (beware of the custom taxes).

What I consider your best option:
Takamura R2. You can even get one in France (mais en 18cm)
http://couteaujaponais.oxatis.com/couteau-japonais-de-cuisine-takamura-san-r2-chef-18-cm-c2x15052865
NB: this knife is a laser. very thin, easy to sharpen great steel, with a western handle. It is your go. It exits in 210 mm, but will be a bit more expensive.


Matching your requirement: a entrée de gamme in VG10 from JCK. Ask organise you a the shipment for the custom.
http://www.japanesechefsknife.com/KAGAYAKIVG-10.html#KAGAYAKIVG-10

The Masamoto VG. Better the the one above, but a bit above your budget
http://www.japanesechefsknife.com/VGSeries.html#VGSeries ( VG-5021)

Misono UX10. above your budget, but a highly regarded knife.
http://www.japanesechefsknife.com/UX10Series.html#UX10Series

Alternatiely a Waiku 18 cm:
http://www.cleancut.se/butik/knivmodeller/kockknivar/kockkniv_wakui-2319-detail
Note that the core tell is reactive, but it is stainless clad. I know it is not matching what you asked, but it is actually quite easy to take care of.

A bit out budget and also with a carbon core. Bt an excellent knife to begin with
https://cuttingedgeknives.co.uk/brands/masakage/yuki/gyuto-210mm

Fianly, since your budget is the limiting factor, I would advice you to look at the second hand market (look at the the knife to sell). You get usually -20% compared to the price new. However, shipment to EU is expensive. Look carefully at the second hand knife from people in EU.

EDIT: indeed with a small board a 210 is the way to go. get another board before getting a 240

Je crois qu'avec ça tu as déjà de quoi faire.
 
http://www.japanesechefsknife.com/BlueMoonBlueSteelWaSeries.html

It isn't 100% stainless. Stainless clad, but it's super low maintenance. It's blue #2 steel and wrapped in stainless. Extremely well made knife for $98 and looks cool. If you need 100% stainless I would go tojiro hsps from james at knives and stones or splurge and get an ittinomonn StainLess from maxim at japanese natural stones. Tanaka vg10 Is also something I'd look at. I can't recommend a tojiro dp when for a few bucks more you can get a hsps that is a significant upgrade. As for stones I'd look at a 5k. 1k/5K is a classic set up that will give a nice refined edge.
 
Thanks both of you!
As I am beginning in J knife, I won't go over 130 dollars for my first purchase. First I was only looking at entry level like 80 dollars Misono molyb but then I thought ouah let's get crazy and see just a bit more.
I think 180 knife would be too short. It's a good idea to look on second hand market! I will check that!
For the board i am about to get upper size like 16" x12 or even 17".

I did not notice those "blue moon " knifes ! They look nice but I'm afraid of rust as I may not be alone to use it (and care) at home. Any feedback about stainless clad ?

A fine stone may come later. OK for 5k then.

And what do you think about Misono 440?
Again thanks!
 
I really insist on the Takamura 18 cm. For a first J-knife as a home cook, it will not be too short. Especially considering the size of your board. Or get it in 21 cm. You will get a nice and performer knife of such better steel and quality than all the other knife you are considering.

carbon stainless clad is quite easy to handle. The only rule: do not let it on the board for an extended period of time when you are done cutting. Just wash it and dry it. Nothing more. If you are afraid, force a patina (using coffee is the simplest) before the first use and you are good to go.
 
The takamura r2 is insane. They pop up used regularly. I think I paid 135 usd for my used one and 199cad for my new one. Ultra thin and light weight. Very agile. It's the only knife I have two of if that says something in my 20+ knife collection. It's only downfall is it isn't for a novice. If you bang it up or try and be a hero with it, you may damage the blade. That being said if your willing to take your time and only use it on soft ingredients it is probably the best $/$ knife on the planet. An absoulute joy to use.
 
Takamura all the way.

Oooor

Tanaka VG10 is one hell of an option from metalmaster
 
In fact for a new user I might revise in favour of the Tanaka which is less fragile and firmly within budget. Treat yourself to the Takamura in 6m - 1 year
 
The Takamura is awesome; I must agree. Scalpel over sword, but if you can handle using it like a scalpel, it'll cut like whoa.
 
Stay within your budget and order that Tojiro. I still have a Tojiro petty. Sure, it's my goto letter opener, but it's still a sharp little sucker and was great for sharpening practice. Learning how to sharpen is more important and will be more beneficial then upping the ante.
 
Thanks for those many suggestions. On the German website we can get the 210 takamura for 160€ Inc delivery it's good for price I think but a bit over budget anyway for first knife
All these knives are vg10 steel with hrc 60-61 and even more for Takamura (63). I'm afraid it will be difficult to sharpen for a newbie. Maybe a softer steel (58-60) would be a good option to improve sharpening technique, no?
 
On the "blue steel" wa gyuto, blade thickness is 5 mm, vs 2 mm usually observed on stainless gyuto. What difference does it make ?
 
Takamura 21cm at 150 euros is a bargin. Moreover, it is simple to get sharp, even if the it is harder steel.
- R2 is much nicer on the stones than VG10.
- the blade is so thin that you need to remove very little material to get a screaming sharp edge. You are more likely sharpening to much than not enough
- a laser cuts very well even if the edge is a bit dull, because it is thin
- The takamura is the knife you will need to sharpen the less compared to the other

I agree with the other that it is a knife that require a bit of nice technique. But I think it is actually good for a beginner. You will have to be careful and to learn and train your skills to use this knife. It means that in one month from now, you technique will have improve a lot.
 
I would also suggest to go for Takamura instead of Tojiro in VG10. But Tojiro is like 3 times cheaper. You can get it on amzon for around 60 eur.

Takamura like zetieum wrote it is not at all difficult to sharpen.

I bought it 3 weeks ago and it is a great knife. The only comment I have is that the handle is extremely small. If you have big hands you should probably skip it.
 
I wouldn't start with a laser. Unless you're very skilled you will see a poor food release. And sharpening R2 isn't that simple.
 
I was recently surprised by how well a couple Torijo DPs cleaned up. Pretty easy to thin a little and sharpen out some chips. They are now first "good" knives for a line cook and he thinks they're great.

Another good choice (prob better choice) is Suisin Western Inox. Nice knife and looks good on the wall. Just over 100 USD. Korin sells them and they have a retail presence in France. And they're having a sale right now.
 
I have to say about the takamura. Its so thin, its actually pretty easy, because of the small bevel. especially with that naniwa 1K you'll be fine. couple alternating edge trailing strokes and you'll see a huge difference in your edge. ( other thicker knives i have experience with Zkramer R2, take a bit more work because its a lot thicker)
Ill go as far to say that you will probably wont need to thin the takamura 210 for a long long time, maybe when the gyuto resembles a petty. its 1.4mm right at the top of the spine.
 
Another good choice (prob better choice) is Suisin Western Inox. Nice knife and looks good on the wall. Just over 100 USD. Korin sells them and they have a retail presence in France. And they're having a sale right now.

:plus1: Indeed. That's a perfect suggestion from @daveb If you are not sure about the takamura, That would be the second best choice, IMHO.
EDIT: it is less than 100 euros http://www.korin-france.fr/nos-coll...sin-couteaux-japonais/inox-western-style.html
 
I have to say about the takamura. Its so thin, its actually pretty easy, because of the small bevel. especially with that naniwa 1K you'll be fine. couple alternating edge trailing strokes and you'll see a huge difference in your edge. ( other thicker knives i have experience with Zkramer R2, take a bit more work because its a lot thicker)
Ill go as far to say that you will probably wont need to thin the takamura 210 for a long long time, maybe when the gyuto resembles a petty. its 1.4mm right at the top of the spine.

Deburring R2 requires much finer stones, I go up to 8k. By alternating a few edge trailing strokes on a 1k as only sharpening you're likely to create a wire edge. Which is indeed very sharp...for a few cuts.
 
Takamura seems really nice but it might not be a good choice te begin with J knives and learn sharpening.
I also considered Carbonext and Blue steel, but I'm afraid of rust. carbon or semi-stainless will come later I guess. Kikuichi moly also seems great but its' over 150$.
Now I'm more looking at masamoto VG (145$) or misono 440 (120$) or even Kagayaki VG (128$) . I would also consider Mac pro but it is quite difficult to get them in France.
Masamoto has POM handle, seems not as good as pakkawood.
What do you guys think about these?
 
On blue moon knife, blade thickness is 5 mm! That seems very thick compared to usual 2 mm. Can you still cut thin or why is the behaviour difference ?
 
Some knives are just very thick right at the very point where it meets the handle which is where this measurement is taken from. How much it tapers towards the point and how much and from how high down the blade face it thins towards the edge is more important. This blue moon knife looks a hell of a lot like a tadafusa or Ichimonji kichikuni blue steel knife which people round here love as a value proposition. And not very expensive to practise sharpening on and eventually thinning. I've read that these go from good to great when thinned.
 
I hope it is OK if I chime in... I am only doing it because there seems to be good experience with Takamura Migaki R2 here!

I am currently looking for a 210 gyuto which can accompany me on my travels. These are the ones I find interesting:
Takamura Migaki R2 160$
Kohetsu HAP40 200$
Kohetsu Aogami Super (AS) 175$

Leaving the handle choice aside (Kohetsus are available with wa-handle too), which would you guys consider best? The first 2 are PM, the third is carbon steel in stainless clad. All 3 should be decent knives, I know. What is the main difference between R2 and HAP40? Is HAP40 worth the premium?

When I compare Western handles, the Takamura looks a bit smaller/slimmer and rounder than the Kohetsus...
 
I hope it is OK if I chime in... I am only doing it because there seems to be good experience with Takamura Migaki R2 here!

I am currently looking for a 210 gyuto which can accompany me on my travels. These are the ones I find interesting:
Takamura Migaki R2 160$
Kohetsu HAP40 200$
Kohetsu Aogami Super (AS) 175$

Leaving the handle choice aside (Kohetsus are available with wa-handle too), which would you guys consider best? The first 2 are PM, the third is carbon steel in stainless clad. All 3 should be decent knives, I know. What is the main difference between R2 and HAP40? Is HAP40 worth the premium?

When I compare Western handles, the Takamura looks a bit smaller/slimmer and rounder than the Kohetsus...

Well: what are "your travels?" Is it traveling and working in pro setting with you knife not being able to sharpen it in the meanwhile? or traveling a couple of weeks in vacation with your family?
 
Well: what are "your travels?" Is it traveling and working in pro setting with you knife not being able to sharpen it in the meanwhile? or traveling a couple of weeks in vacation with your family?
I meant vacation, sorry for being not precise. I saw the Takamura Migaki R2 is thinner than the Kohetsus, although those are already lasers...
 
I hope it is OK if I chime in... I am only doing it because there seems to be good experience with Takamura Migaki R2 here!

I am currently looking for a 210 gyuto which can accompany me on my travels. These are the ones I find interesting:
Takamura Migaki R2 160$
Kohetsu HAP40 200$
Kohetsu Aogami Super (AS) 175$

Leaving the handle choice aside (Kohetsus are available with wa-handle too), which would you guys consider best? The first 2 are PM, the third is carbon steel in stainless clad. All 3 should be decent knives, I know. What is the main difference between R2 and HAP40? Is HAP40 worth the premium?

When I compare Western handles, the Takamura looks a bit smaller/slimmer and rounder than the Kohetsus...

Just to be clear, while R2 and HAP40 are both PM steels, they're still different steels.
 
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