Upgrading from Shun Classic Gyuto, $400-$800, Amazed by this new world

LOCATION
What country are you in?
USA

KNIFE TYPE
What type of knife are you interested in (e.g., chef’s knife, slicer, boning knife, utility knife, bread knife, paring knife, cleaver)?
Chef

Are you right or left handed?
Right

Are you interested in a Western handle (e.g., classic Wusthof handle) or Japanese handle?
Japanese (Wa or D)

What length of knife (blade) are you interested in (in inches or millimeters)?
240mm based on what I've read here

Do you require a stainless knife? (Yes or no)
No, but I am inclined towards semi-stainless for aesthetic

What is your absolute maximum budget for your knife?
$800, but targeting more like $500



KNIFE USE
Do you primarily intend to use this knife at home or a professional environment?
Home, though I frequently cook for groups of friends

What are the main tasks you primarily intend to use the knife for?
Slicing vegetables, mincing vegetables, chopping vegetables, general everyday use, trimming meats, slicing meats (still have my Shun Classic meat slicer though, so not top priority)

What knife, if any, are you replacing?
Shun Classic 8 inch, 8 years old

Do you have a particular grip that you primarily use? (Please click on this LINK for the common types of grips.)
Pinch grip (I usually point my index finger forward, but promise to start doing it the right way )

What cutting motions do you primarily use? (Please click on this LINK for types of cutting motions and identify the two or three most common cutting motions, in order of most used to least used.)
Push-cut (80%), slice (20%)

What improvements do you want from your current knife? If you are not replacing a knife, please identify as many characteristics identified below in parentheses that you would like this knife to have.
Japanese aesthetic, better edge, better handle material, push cutting, better food release

KNIFE MAINTENANCE
Do you use a bamboo, wood, rubber, or synthetic cutting board? (Yes or no.)
Yes

Do you sharpen your own knives? (Yes or no.)
No, but if I spend this much I plan to take a class and start doing so.

If not, are you interested in learning how to sharpen your knives? (Yes or no.)
Yes

Are you interested in purchasing sharpening products for your knives? (Yes or no.)
No, sharpening product is included in the class I plan to take.


SPECIAL REQUESTS/COMMENTS
I am looking for something highly functional and somewhat beautiful that will inspire me to attempt more complex preparations and take my home cooking to the next level. I have been happy with the Shun Classic and am inspired by what I've been reading about Kato, Toyama, Gesshin, Watanabe, Kochi, etc. etc. It looks like Konosuke was popular a few years ago. I was about to purchase a Gesshin Heiji 240 but read a review dogging its wedging ability. I'm on a waiting list to hear about the high-demand Kato Workhorse availability, but maybe that's not even the right knife for me.

Don't right off the Heiji everyone has different tastes and techniques. I have owned both Heiji and Kato (x3) and I prefer the Heiji, but many prefer Kato. Maintaining the Heiji and keeping the original geometry will be easier on the Heiji IMO.

The Heiji is also available in semi stainless and clad in stainless. Kato is carbon core and clad in iron (can be somewhat reactive)

Many of the knives you listed are heavier and/or thicker... Is that what you prefer?

bkultra said:

Many of the knives you listed are heavier and/or thicker... Is that what you prefer?

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Thanks for your reply. The knives I listed are just based on seeing the names pop up over and over while reading. I'm honestly not sure how much weight will be right for my everyday use gyuto.

Am planning to visit a cutlery shop in San Francisco today to learn there as well.

Kato, Heiji, Watanabe, and Toyama are all thicker knives. Many refer to these as "workhorse", it's the current trend. As you mentioned Konosuke was more popular a few years ago, along with all other thin knives (often referred to as "lasers"). Trends come and go, find something that fits your style and presence. Getting some hands on experience at a shop sounds like a great idea.

Edit: looks like JKI is only a 6 hour road trip for you... And I'm sure it's filled with scenic views

I think your choice will be defined by whether you want a laser (passes through dry food effotlessly but suctions to wet food and the blade torques with poor technique) or a workhorse (not quite as super thin but with a grind that avoids suction to wet foods to a much greater extent). I prefer the latter.

Why do you want semi stainless? I have a few semi stainless knives but they by and large look just like my stainless ones (my carbonext does have a hint of patina from my pinch I guess).
Edit: Nothing wrong with semi stainless but just wondering what the attraction is as it significantly narrows the field down.

Please do wait and make the trip to jki if possible. They are the premier cutlery store in your country... You will not be disappointed. He will sell you what you need, not what you want or what he can profit from. His products are curated based on quality and finish... You would be making a huge mistake not to wait and visit Jon if it is at all feasible for you to do so.

Bernal Cutlery has Wakui, Yoshikane, Ashi Ginga, Ikeda, Hinoura, etc.... Spend some time there and see what you think

I wouldn't spend $500 on a knife that you cannot currently do the upkeep on.

Obviously, this is just my opinion, but it's better to learn on a less expensive knife than to go out and buy a Kato when you have no experience caring for a carbon steel blade. I'd be looking more in the $250-300 range until you know what you really want in a knife before you drop $500 and above.

Also, I'm just curious: what you like about the aesthetic of semi-stainless steel?

I am a fan of my SS knives, but most people are not attracted to the "ugly" gray patinas. It doesn't bother me, but others are usually not so fond of these knives for the looks.

deplemisher said:

Thanks for your reply. The knives I listed are just based on seeing the names pop up over and over while reading. I'm honestly not sure how much weight will be right for my everyday use gyuto.

Am planning to visit a cutlery shop in San Francisco today to learn there as well.

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Bernal cutlery is good - lots of choices and josh is knowledgeable.

$800 is a lot, $500 will buy you a top quality knife. Take your time- get exactly what you want for that money... if you can, try various knives

I don't have enough experience to suggest a particular knife but will suggest that you handle a few knives first and if at all possible, make the trip to Jon at JKI. He really is super helpful and will guide you in the right direction. Read this article if you haven't done so already: https://munchies.vice.com/en/articl...out-this-knife-master?utm_source=munchiesfbus

I'd also take on board @mise_en_place's prudent comment about spending a little less on your first good knife. You've been reading, you will soon handle some knives but you'd know more about your preferences once you used one and most importantly, practised your sharpening skills on a knife that didn't cost the earth. Plenty of time to plummet down the rabbit hole after that...

Spoke to Tim today at Bernal Cutlery. Was a very helpful experience, but I still feel like I know very little.

I spoke too soon on the semi-stainless. After holding Yoshikazu Ikeda Suminigashi 240mm I'm a bit more interested in Blue Steel #1 and other materials primarily for their toothiness.

I realized that it's really important to have a blade that can slice tomatoes like a champ - I cook with them quite a bit. Also I'm looking for something that wedges at least fairly well and food doesn't stick to it so much.

As far as getting a less costly gyuto first, I try to do things right the first time so I don't have to keep replacing mediocre items and spend more over time. If this is a case where I need to learn on a more basic blade because I'll ruin the thing then that's different. If there's a $1000 blade that will stay in shape, not require excessive maintenance, and last [a home chef] forever then I'd be interested.

Since you cook with a lot of tomatoes, I recommend getting into a good habit of wiping your blade often if you're going to go carbon steel

deplemisher said:

As far as getting a less costly gyuto first, I try to do things right the first time so I don't have to keep replacing mediocre items and spend more over time. If this is a case where I need to learn on a more basic blade because I'll ruin the thing then that's different. If there's a $1000 blade that will stay in shape, not require excessive maintenance, and last [a home chef] forever then I'd be interested.

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My initial approach was pretty much the same - I would spend what I needed to spend to get the "right" knife. I listened to some wisdom (here) and found my first knife at about 300 that ticked all these boxes. Several knives later I still find that 3-400 is my sweet spot, though I've danced on either side. Please know I'm trying to say this tactfully but if you can't get it done for 300, dropping a grand won't make a difference.

deplemisher said:

Spoke to Tim today at Bernal Cutlery. Was a very helpful experience, but I still feel like I know very little.

I spoke too soon on the semi-stainless. After holding Yoshikazu Ikeda Suminigashi 240mm I'm a bit more interested in Blue Steel #1 and other materials primarily for their toothiness.

I realized that it's really important to have a blade that can slice tomatoes like a champ - I cook with them quite a bit. Also I'm looking for something that wedges at least fairly well and food doesn't stick to it so much.

As far as getting a less costly gyuto first, I try to do things right the first time so I don't have to keep replacing mediocre items and spend more over time. If this is a case where I need to learn on a more basic blade because I'll ruin the thing then that's different. If there's a $1000 blade that will stay in shape, not require excessive maintenance, and last [a home chef] forever then I'd be interested.

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Buy a Wakui 240 or 270 gyuto from Bernal. For you, spring for the Ebony D-shaped handle. (I'm a lefty, so I bought the 270 with ho octagonal handle from Bernal). These Wakui knives are incredible and wildly underpriced. I own knives that cost 2X and 3X as much, but none are significantly better than the Wakui. I seriously doubt you would ever replace this knife, but if you did I doubt you would lose any money on it. My guess is that in a few years, these will cost 25%+ more money and a used one will fetch at least what a new one sells for today.

Cheers,
Blair

daveb said:

My initial approach was pretty much the same - I would spend what I needed to spend to get the "right" knife. I listened to some wisdom (here) and found my first knife at about 300 that ticked all these boxes. Several knives later I still find that 3-400 is my sweet spot, though I've danced on either side. Please know I'm trying to say this tactfully but if you can't get it done for 300, dropping a grand won't make a difference.

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Listen to this sage advice.

Once beyond that point for the most part you are paying for minor differences that us collectors or enthusiasts desire rather than any major improvememt in performance.

daveb said:

My initial approach was pretty much the same - I would spend what I needed to spend to get the "right" knife. I listened to some wisdom (here) and found my first knife at about 300 that ticked all these boxes. Several knives later I still find that 3-400 is my sweet spot, though I've danced on either side. Please know I'm trying to say this tactfully but if you can't get it done for 300, dropping a grand won't make a difference.

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lus1:
@malexthekid has already pointed out the wisdom of Dave's advice. I couldn't agree more.

Plus 3. What DaveB said.

deplemisher said:

Spoke to Tim today at Bernal Cutlery. Was a very helpful experience, but I still feel like I know very little.

I spoke too soon on the semi-stainless. After holding Yoshikazu Ikeda Suminigashi 240mm I'm a bit more interested in Blue Steel #1 and other materials primarily for their toothiness.

I realized that it's really important to have a blade that can slice tomatoes like a champ - I cook with them quite a bit. Also I'm looking for something that wedges at least fairly well and food doesn't stick to it so much.

As far as getting a less costly gyuto first, I try to do things right the first time so I don't have to keep replacing mediocre items and spend more over time. If this is a case where I need to learn on a more basic blade because I'll ruin the thing then that's different. If there's a $1000 blade that will stay in shape, not require excessive maintenance, and last [a home chef] forever then I'd be interested.

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Steel type is a bit hyped around here and with some vendors imo...any of the good steels (read this as most any knife recommended around these parts) properly sharpened will cut tomatoes just fine. I happen to enjoy the blue steels (1 or 2) myself but nothing wrong with white 1 or 2, V2, AOSuper, etc...and those are just a few of the carbon choices...I believe I've tried quite a few of the standard carbons but if you can't sharpen it really doesn't matter...and if you can sharpen, the steel won't matter...as to toothiness, talk to your stonemeister to make sure what you get will leave the edge you enjoy...as to your last comment, no such thing...which leads to my final point...

daveb said:

My initial approach was pretty much the same - I would spend what I needed to spend to get the "right" knife. I listened to some wisdom (here) and found my first knife at about 300 that ticked all these boxes. Several knives later I still find that 3-400 is my sweet spot, though I've danced on either side. Please know I'm trying to say this tactfully but if you can't get it done for 300, dropping a grand won't make a difference.

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+1 to what Daveb says again...though mine seems to fall between 250 and 350 but you get the idea...more $ is often aesthetically pleasing but often/usually/sometimes though not necessarily at a loss of performance (or certainly with no gain in performance).:biggrin:

Finally, my suggestion is a Kochi from JKI (in whichever flavor you prefer--I like the ku V2 full carbon:wink

$200-300 can do it too. Got my Itinomonn 270mm for <200 with a sale this past year and frankly in terms of necessity I'm far from needing something better. Will have to see if my skills ever catch up

deplemisher said:

Spoke to Tim today at Bernal Cutlery. Was a very helpful experience, but I still feel like I know very little.

I spoke too soon on the semi-stainless. After holding Yoshikazu Ikeda Suminigashi 240mm I'm a bit more interested in Blue Steel #1 and other materials primarily for their toothiness.

I realized that it's really important to have a blade that can slice tomatoes like a champ - I cook with them quite a bit. Also I'm looking for something that wedges at least fairly well and food doesn't stick to it so much.

As far as getting a less costly gyuto first, I try to do things right the first time so I don't have to keep replacing mediocre items and spend more over time. If this is a case where I need to learn on a more basic blade because I'll ruin the thing then that's different. If there's a $1000 blade that will stay in shape, not require excessive maintenance, and last [a home chef] forever then I'd be interested.

Click to expand...

That Ikeda is an end game knife that you might mess up when learning to sharpen. If that is your goal then buy some whetstones! Practice on your faithful Shun. Once you get good at sharpening, start thinking Yoshikasu Ikeda! Give yourself 6 months of sharpening/messing up your Shun and you will save yourself the heartache of messing up a masterpiece!

fatboylim said:

That Ikeda is an end game knife that you might mess up when learning to sharpen. If that is your goal then buy some whetstones! Practice on your faithful Shun. Once you get good at sharpening, start thinking Yoshikasu Ikeda! Give yourself 6 months of sharpening/messing up your Shun and you will save yourself the heartache of messing up a masterpiece!

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Along with all the other sage advice on this forum this is a great idea. I'll learn to sharpen on my Shun and take whatever knife I purchase in for professional sharpening until my skills are sufficient.

If that's the plan, would it be crazy for me to get something like the Ikeda or another end game knife?

deplemisher said:

Along with all the other sage advice on this forum this is a great idea. I'll learn to sharpen on my Shun and take whatever knife I purchase in for professional sharpening until my skills are sufficient.

If that's the plan, would it be crazy for me to get something like the Ikeda or another end game knife?

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Just take it to the stones and take it slowly... there isn't much you can do that the pro sharpeners on this form can't fix.

And don't know what shuns are like to sharpen but I can say if I had to learn on my cheap knives I would have given up long before moving to my j-knives. If you want to learn to sharpen before taking a nice knife to stones, get a cheap carbon knife to play with.

"if I had to learn on my cheap knives I would have given up long before moving to my j-knives"

+1 ... get a Tosa or something like that - they are finished in a rustic way so no problem to leave them looking strange from time to time, they are neither hugely expensive nor are they too cheap to behave authentically.

Bernal has a knife sharpening class that can teach you the basics. Sharpen a few other knives before your prize knifes.

No one, not even those that have not been nice, deserves a Tosa. They only exist so that metallurgists that study rust can have a steady source.

deplemisher said:

Spoke to Tim today at Bernal Cutlery. Was a very helpful experience, but I still feel like I know very little.

I spoke too soon on the semi-stainless. After holding Yoshikazu Ikeda Suminigashi 240mm I'm a bit more interested in Blue Steel #1 and other materials primarily for their toothiness.

I realized that it's really important to have a blade that can slice tomatoes like a champ - I cook with them quite a bit. Also I'm looking for something that wedges at least fairly well and food doesn't stick to it so much.

As far as getting a less costly gyuto first, I try to do things right the first time so I don't have to keep replacing mediocre items and spend more over time. If this is a case where I need to learn on a more basic blade because I'll ruin the thing then that's different. If there's a $1000 blade that will stay in shape, not require excessive maintenance, and last [a home chef] forever then I'd be interested.

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Do I recall that he has classes on knife sharpening? If so, and if it's convenient, you might consider them. Also, there's the option of him sharpening your knife, again if you're in the bay area. He offers a free sharpening coupon with purchase and he really is good at the craft.

I also think you should look at the Wakui, as recommended by BlueSteel. It is one very fine knife.

Oops, jkts already mentioned the classes. I so wish I lived closer so that I could partake.

daveb said:

No one, not even those that have not been nice, deserves a Tosa. They only exist so that metallurgists that study rust can have a steady source.

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What about Zakuri?

Tosa as in : Zakuri, Nakagoshi, Dictum's house kurouchi series, Yamashin, the actual "Tosa" brand, and many more ... not just the last one.

The brand. Had one. First cut it started rusting. Washed it and it rusted more. Oiled it and the oil rusted. Gave it to someone I didn't like.