Rounding out stones in a river of thought

KKF, I came here a few months ago to seeking advice, now I am madly in love with sharpening knives and has fallen down a deep rabbit hole.

Please help me choose where to go with my stones!

So here goes, right now:

Atoma 400
King Deluxe 800 wide (in transit)
Suehiro 1k/3k (just the home use kutobuki)
King 1k/6k

Next step(?)
Kitayama 8000
Maybe buying a 220 pink brick when o get better atstart to do thinning

Eventually, I would like to attempt thinning, finshing work with finger stones, trying various Jnats, etc. But this world is complicated to say the least, so please kindly leave some guiding advice

Looks like you are in need of a coarser stone. Something like JNS 300 or King Deluxe 300 would fit that criteria. I use it all the time to sharpen cheap stainless or set the bevel of some good quality stainless like cpm154.

I am also in need of a coarser stone, but is a 300 necessary if you already have an atoma 400? If so, why?

You will wear out the atoma faster than an average coarse stone. Plus the diamonds will leave quite deep scratches and may ‘tear’ soft cladding when thinning or simply working higher up on the bevels.

I would only use the Atoma for stone flattening (though 140 is probably better for that)

But are you sure that you need an 8000 stone? If I wanted a finer edge I would rather look for a natural stone.

Suggest you pick up a solid coarse stone. JNS 300 is my fav because of the way it cuts, it doesn't (for all practical purposes) dish and it's splash and go which I like for a stone that only comes out occasionally. JKI 400 is another I like but it does dish at bit and is a soaker.

Lose the Kitamya from the wish list. I've had 2 and sent them both onward. By the time you get good results with an 8K stone you'll be ready for a Jnat anyway.

Think about something solid in the mid range for your next. In the time it's taken to write this and read the replies you've probably worn out the 1/6K. Soakers - JKI, S&G-JNS.

After the mid add a solid 5 - 6K.

The Pinky will be a good pickup somewhere downstream.

I made the same decision a few years ago and I would do the exact same thing again today.

My thought process with this was pretty easy. Jon Broida is widely acclaimed here as having a well thought out line of stones and pretty knowledgeable about sharpening too. I just bellied up to the bar and bought the "standard" progression, all from one vendor. In JKI's case this is the 400/2000/6000. I also bought a plate from him to keep things flat. I bought a cheap 220 for thinning crappy knives (my old trusty wusthof LOVED that stone) and a snap top plastic tub that was just big enough to hold all four stones. I went on amazon and bought an inexpensive stone holder and I use an old silpat mat to keep everything from moving around. Oh, and a plastic squirt bottle for water.

That's my whole setup, haven't changed a thing in three years, it's now getting to be time to think about replacing the 400.

Done.

I understand you're in Canada and buying from JKI is not as easy, but think about getting a complete solution from one vendor. They tend to work well together and in my case at least, the after sale support was worth more than the stones.

Rick

I like both the pink brick 220 and the kitayama. Both go to stones for me. Neither are the perfect stone, none are, but those two fit my needs rather well. The 220 cuts quickly, feels fair in use and leaves a finish that is easy to remove with a much higher grit stone. It is very thirsty and wears quickly though. The Kitayama is a very soft stone but is versatile. Works well with either large or small jumps. It is a great stone to put before a natural too.

Hope you find stones that fit your needs.

Thanks for all the input so far guys, keep them coming! Heres what my noob station v1.0 looks like, I took Jons advice on extra knuckle space (really helped), used a cutting board for that. I would post a video for all of you to laugh at but Im afraid someone will repost on the youtube knucklehead thread



Yeah that King dishs so quick I keep the atoma out to flaten it between knives

Matus said:

...But are you sure that you need an 8000 stone? If I wanted a finer edge I would rather look for a natural stone.

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This^
Find a nice Orhira Suita in your $$ range and call it a day. Seriously, your edge will go from great to magical, why? that is the strangeness of the Jnats, they're bloody magic!
Not a fan of King and I think Suehiro makes decent bang-for -buck products. You will end up with something better in the 800-2k range eventually, that's just how this rabitthole rolls.
enjoy.

daveb said:

After the mid add a solid 5 - 6K..

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Whats a mid range (1-3k) would you recommend? I was looking at the Rika for a 5k option, but leaning strongly on saving money for intronto Jnats

aaamax said:

This^
Find a nice Orhira Suita in your $$ range and call it a day. .

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I was looking into some, whats are some of your fav "intro to jnat" stones ? Personally I was looking into Aizu as everyone swears by the edge. Also looking at a Binsui as a starter (?) So whats everyones first Jnat and how much did u spend (did the S.O. know?lol)

Aizu does leave a nice edge on a double bevel knife. Not the most user friendly stone nor my favorite to use though. Favorite stone, you have got to be kidding! Okay, most versitile edge comes from either my Aono or Tanba aoto. Medium soft stones that finish in the 3-5k range. Both are very easy and enjoyable to use and are great for double bevel finish and are okay for a lower grade working kasumi. Each stone was around $90 including shipping.

For butchery tasks I still like my Monzen-to. Similar finish, edge wise to the Aoto but slightly more aggressive/toothy. Probably somewhere in the 2-4k range. Better kasumi but still clearly a mid grit. Gives great medium dark and foggy contrast. Very soft and muddy and fun to use. I can not recall what I paid for mine but it is brick size and I know it was well under $200 but I can not remember the exact number. Ikarahsi and Iyo-to will work here too. Ikarashi is a fair bit harder and sightly coarser but not as aggressive in steel removal. More aggressive in edge characteristics and the cosmetic finish is more anemic. The Iyo is much, much more expensive and between the two stones in every way. A good stone but not worth the price of admission.

For paring and utility tasks I like my Binsui. It is a nice stone but it is hard for a naka-to and does not like to give up slurry. Need to hit it with a plate if you want to speed things up and then it chews through steel quickly but leaves a fine edge for what it is. Many people say they are in the 1200 range but mine finishes up closer to my finer Ikarashi. Probably 1500-2000. Great for softer stainless.

Best all around Awase-to? I like my Lv 3.5 Yaginoshima Asagi. It is an easy to use but fairly firm stone. Not muddy but makes its own slurry. Will give a broken mirror on a wide bevel and leaves a very clean edge with a hint of bite. Probably 8k+ compared to synthetics. Good to better than average feedback too. Moderate cutting speed. But for feel and ease of use I love my Takashima Iromono. It is soft, about lvl 2. Not a fast stone by any means but it is such a joy to use. Moderate amounts of silky mud and it feels elsastic yet chalky with a hint of creaminess. It is great at nothing and good at everything. I find that my Oouchi can sub for my Yagi and my Hideriyama for my Takashima but I like the later two better. Every one of these stones was under $200 each.

Most practical finishing stone that I have, natural wise, is probably an Ohira asagi (Lv3.5+). Fast, fine and fairly easy to use. Set me back $280 shipped from Aframes. Only natural I really need but that is no fun at all.

Least practical is my Yaginoshima Suita. It is moderately slow, was fairly expensive and is ultra fine. Easily 10k+. Full on mirror with maybe a wee bit of haze on a wide bevel. Big stone too and very dense. Set me back around $300 iirc.

So yeah, it is not a simple question at least not for me. I have loads of other stones that I love to use as well. I had half a dozen Amakusa but kept only one. Probably the stone that varied the most for me. I have had them almost as hard as a shapton glass and as slow as an Arkansas stone to as soft as a king 800 and as fast as a shapton 500. I kept the latter. Everything between too. Tajima and Natsuya are nice stones as well but both are tweeners and really are not needed for anything. Shame as they are fun to use. Same goes for my Omura. It is not fast enough to justify using over my Amakusa honestly and not near as nice for feedback. Cost more too. Etc...

Good luck.

Wow, three months ago I had no idea what a JNat was, and here now, I understood 90% of what you said (pat self on back), though I have no idea what about Taima or Natsuya is .

Wherr can I get a good aoto for $90 !? I've watched a few videos of Jon at JKI using the Monzen-to looks to be very muddy, but seems to have varying range of coarse

Xenif said:

Wow, three months ago I had no idea what a JNat was, and here now, I understood 90% of what you said (pat self on back), though I have no idea what about Taima or Natsuya is .

Wherr can I get a good aoto for $90 !? I've watched a few videos of Jon at JKI using the Monzen-to looks to be very muddy, but seems to have varying range of coarse

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Low cost aoto are normally considered a gamble but I have always had good luck. Metal master and Watanabe normally. I normally buy small stones 6.5-7.5 inch in length to save money. Move up the the 8-9 inch range and they climb in price. You have to catch them in stock on the cheap too. There are other sources but they are less popular around here.

Tajima and Natsuya are Naka-to stones that are, I guess, semi rare. I have seen plenty of them for sale though. I would say the Tajima that I have leaves a 3k(ish) edge but is a slower stone. Medium hard and very dense but almost feels elastic in use. Pillowy soft light brown mud. Natsuya is kind of like a harder Amakusa style stone. A sandy stone but bound much tighter. On the medium slow to medium side for cutting but it is aggressive in that it seems to take off larger particles of steel, or something like that. I have seen people say these are as fine as 2k but I have not experienced that at all. Closer to 800-1000 when compared to synthetics.

Oh and a WTB add here might net you a good aoto at a nice price. Definitely something to consider if it is something you are interested in.

Xenif said:

Whats a mid range (1-3k) would you recommend? I was looking at the Rika for a 5k option

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Before you go much further you should decide if you want soakers or splash and go. The coarse does not need to be consistent - it's not used often so can be odd man out. Your mid and finish synthetics will be used together a lot and only makes sense that they are both soakers or both s&g. I prefer the soaker experience but s&g fit current lifestyle better.

Bear in mind that a soaker isn't about getting the stone wet, it's about getting it dry. If you can perma-soak the stone then soakers are great. If you'll be drying between uses and/or transporting the stone(s) then s&g will probably be a better fit.


That said the best soaker I've ever used (and arguably the best soaker ever) is JKI's G2K. Paired with a G4K or G6K and you'll have the best stones on your street. For splash and go I like the G1/6K combo, and the JNS 1K and 6K stones. Both JKI and JNS offer a synthetic aoto that I like to finish gyuto on.

Did I mention lose the Kit?

Sorry I don't quite underatand what you mean by lose the kit.

S&G more appealing to me, correct me if Im wrong but most jnats are s&g?

Im not against soakers thou, drying is not a huge issue, Canada is rather dry, and i took over the baby bottle drying rack (looks like hundred of plastic needles on a board) as wever uses zero bottles between two babies. Best stone and knife drying rack ever.

Kit is kitiyama

It really does seem to be one of those stones that people either rather enjoy or they hate it. I think those who enjoy it, me as an example, do so because of what it is capable of not because of how it does it if you get where I am coming from. What I mean to say is that I totally understand why people who don't love it feel that way.

rickbern said:

Kit is kitiyama

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Ah got it, thanks.

Yeah, stones, like knives and techniques, all come down to preference.

So would you suggest a beginner go buy some random unknown koppa to try out with out breaking the bank? Or would that be a total waste of money and just suck it up and buy some good stuff.

Xenif said:

Ah got it, thanks.

Yeah, stones, like knives and techniques, all come down to preference.

So would you suggest a beginner go buy some random unknown koppa to try out with out breaking the bank? Or would that be a total waste of money and just suck it up and buy some good stuff.

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Not Rick but I can try to answer that. I am going to give the answer that most don't want to hear and that is, it depends. I would buy an unknown koppa as in unknown mine from most members here or from some vendors so long as it was tested and proved to be a good stone. In order for me to buy a stone of unknown quality, it would have to be dirt cheap. Surely under $100.

I do know a few fellas who buy stones that are totally unknown in both mine/quality. Sometimes they get okay stones, sometimes they get crap and sometimes they get fabulous stones. It is a gamble. Hell, stones are often a small gamble to begin with. Just because it is a good stone does not mean it will work for what you want it to or at least not to the extent you want it to.

But the good stuff does not have to be a $1500 Suita in a wooden box will all the stamps. You often are paying for looks and size rather than performance anyway.

Now, that is not me trying to discourage you. Just staying within the realm of reality. Go with your gut. If it feels like a safe move, go for it. If not, well, that is an easy one.

In terms of "beginner" jnat, identify if you prefer using hard or softer stones, what knives you'll be using on them, if you plan to use it purely for edge sharpening or polishing as well, and what kind of an edge you want from it, then go from there by asking reputable sellers for their opinions. Koppa size is definitely the way to go to save cash, but only if you feel your sharpening technique is good enough to sharpen full sized blades in a very small surface.

StonedEdge said:

In terms of "beginner" jnat, identify if you prefer using hard or softer stones, what knives you'll be using on them, if you plan to use it purely for edge sharpening or polishing as well, and what kind of an edge you want from it, then go from there by asking reputable sellers for their opinions. Koppa size is definitely the way to go to save cash, but only if you feel your sharpening technique is good enough to sharpen full sized blades in a very small surface.

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That is a good point, the skill level thing. It is harder to sharpen, not so much polish, on a small surface and odd shapes can make it a bit cumbersome. However, you do get used to it. I cam into this from Arkies so I was used to a 6x2 size as they are common. Not a huge adjustment. But something like a 4x1.5 makes things more interesting, lol.

Now, talking about stones in general. I find user friendly stones to be around LV 2-3 (JNS), HS-35-51 (Wat.) and 8-8.3 (Aframes). The smaller the number the softer it is and the more forgiving it is. Normally but not always more muddy too. Honestly though, my favorites lay in the middle most of the time. LV3, as an example.

Anyway, a stone can be good for edges and polishing/kasumi but I find more often than not the stones that I pick up are always better at one than the other. Example, my Takashima is good at both but I find it is a better edge maker than it is a kasumi stone. It is fair at one and good at the other. The opposite is true of my Hideriyama, good kasumi and fair edge. But these stones differ so I am sure someone has had a different experience.

As already mentioned by many, communication with the vendor is important.

If you are getting your first jnat, maybe a good idea would be something softer, lvl 2 - lvl 3 range at Maksim scale. I remember i didn't like the feeling from my first time sharpening with Aizu as it felt too hard. Some years later i started enjoying harder stones and Aizu became a favorite. By the way, are you looking for a "middle grit" jnat or a finisher?

Thanks again for all the feedback.

I'm looking for few things out of the JNats
1) Varible toothy edge - as I understand it jnats will give more an edge that has varible tooth and thus wear at diffrent rates on the blade making it feel sharper for longer (correct me if im wrong please).
I want both a lower grit (1k ish) for the 135-180 petties, thanks K813zra for making me feel like I am not crazy to want drif grit on def knives. So far Im set on a Binsui to start. I want the 210+ to have 5-8k range, so Im thinking aizu, aoto, and various ones y'all mentioned already.

I think size is ok, Ive managed to put a decent edge on a 270 with that tiny suehiro an inch wide.

As for finishing, i just got a king 800 for contrast pre kasumi finish, looking to learn more about polishing on stone and with finger stones. The look that I like is core steel shinny, transition to highly defined clad line, into a very hazy looking but smooth to the touch kasumi finish (yes I thought about it a lot in three months).

I think softer and muddier stones are easier to get started with Jnats, right? More feed back, less change of over powering leading to edge crushing ?

Xenif said:

Thanks again for all the feedback.

I'm looking for few things out of the JNats
1) Varible toothy edge - as I understand it jnats will give more an edge that has varible tooth and thus wear at diffrent rates on the blade making it feel sharper for longer (correct me if im wrong please).
I want both a lower grit (1k ish) for the 135-180 petties, thanks K813zra for making me feel like I am not crazy to want drif grit on def knives. So far Im set on a Binsui to start. I want the 210+ to have 5-8k range, so Im thinking aizu, aoto, and various ones y'all mentioned already.

I think size is ok, Ive managed to put a decent edge on a 270 with that tiny suehiro an inch wide.

As for finishing, i just got a king 800 for contrast pre kasumi finish, looking to learn more about polishing on stone and with finger stones. The look that I like is core steel shinny, transition to highly defined clad line, into a very hazy looking but smooth to the touch kasumi finish (yes I thought about it a lot in three months).

I think softer and muddier stones are easier to get started with Jnats, right? More feed back, less change of over powering leading to edge crushing ?

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As for softer and muddier, yes up to a point. Example, Yaginoshima and Ohira Asagi stones are harder stones but not hard for what they are. Generally around LV 3-3.35 but I find them to be very good finishing stones that are easy to use. They can benefit from a nagura but do not need it. Both are fairly quick cutting too.

If you pick up a binsui I suggest Watanabe, JNS or Aframes specifically and in that order too. Also, raise some slurry first. It makes the process much faster! I don't know why but my Watanabe Binsui have always been finer than anywhere else. Closer to the 2k mark than the 1k.

The real question would be what are you not currently seeing with your lineup that you would like to see in a new stone or two? If you can't effectively answer that question then you need to use your current set 1000 more times and stop looking to waste money.

Fair point; maybe swap out the combo stones for a proper sized 'mid-grit' stone? You'd be surprised how much nicer it is to sharpen on a larger stone.

Chef Doom said:

The real question would be what are you not currently seeing with your lineup that you would like to see in a new stone or two? If you can't effectively answer that question then you need to use your current set 1000 more times and stop looking to waste money.

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Have to agree with this^
but damn if wasting money isn't more fun than being pragmatic.

I have nothing to contribute that hasn't already been mentioned, but I would like to say to the OP that this is thread's title pleases me greatly.

Also noteworthy is the fact that while Jnats are technically splash n go, they are slow. Much slower than synths. It may or may not be what you're looking for.

Eh, I think the speed and the practicality issues are over stated. I can do a full progression of naturals from bevel set to polish in about 20 minutes.

Edit: On a narrow double bevel with simple steel. Three stones. Amakusa, Ikarashi, Takashima. No strops. Nothing fancy, just a functional edge. Idk what it takes for a sytnetic progression but I will go as basic as possible and break out the SP1k and Kit 8k and time it to see how much time I can save with a two stone set vs three stone natural.