StonedEdge
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You're talking about your particular stones and you're particular sharpening process. Im talking generally.
Rounding out stones in a river of thought
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K813zra
Senior Member
I have, currently, 33 naturals and on average I spend about 2 minutes more per stone on naturals than synthetic. It is a difference, I agree but if you use a 3 stone setup you are talking a 9 minute difference. At home I don't see where that is a big deal. At least not one big enough to put someone off of a natural over a synthetic. Also, in the case of Awase-to I don't always find them slower than synthetics. A good, softer suita is pretty damn fast. But again, on basic carbon and at the edge not on a wide bevel. Totally different story.
I just don't find the difference to be all that huge is all.
Maybe I have just been lucky with my stones or maybe I am patient.11 mintues btw. That is what it took 1k-8k no frills jump.
PS: Those three stones were just an example because I have timed their use before for another thread. I could easily go Natsuya, Tajima and Yagi. Asagi, for another example and I bet it is close to the same.
StonedEdge
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Ok
K813zra
Senior Member
At the end of the day, in general, you are still right though. Naturals are slower, typically. Picking the right stone does help mitigate the speed difference though! Chosing speedy stones.
(I normally keep faster stones and sell slower ones so maybe I am a bit biased here.) Sorry, I am like all jittery and chatty today. I don't have a clue one as I only had one coffee.
I like to use Jnats when I have time to play with them. Fooling around I found that an Omura cuts a better edge on German stainless than any other stone in my kit. Your Omura may vary.
In this context I think the OP is looking for something that Jnats don't offer and that's predictability. I know exactly what to expect from my JKI plates, JNS s&g, Gesshin 1/6, etc. New users can develop proficiency more effectively when the stone behaves the same (or very close to it) from knife to knife regardless of steel.
Jnats are often described as a rabbit hole. Sometimes it's left out that the rabbit belongs to Alice.
In this context I think the OP is looking for something that Jnats don't offer and that's predictability. I know exactly what to expect from my JKI plates, JNS s&g, Gesshin 1/6, etc. New users can develop proficiency more effectively when the stone behaves the same (or very close to it) from knife to knife regardless of steel.
Jnats are often described as a rabbit hole. Sometimes it's left out that the rabbit belongs to Alice.
K813zra
Senior Member
Agree on predictability.
I too have an omura, two in fact. One is from Wakayama, not a 'real' omura and the other is from Kyushu and they are totally different stones. The Kyushu is harder yet faster and muddy in a different way. The mud is thinner and has more color as well as texture. It dishes slower too. The Wakayama makes thick grey mud that is gritty and it is a very, very soft stone. About on par, speed wise, as a softer amakusa (say HS 20 or so). The Wakayama is easier to find and cheaper though.
My most practical stone for stainless is my Ikarashi, hands down. It is fast, not for a natural but in general and finishes fairly fine with a lot of bite at the same time. But for whatever reason it just chews right through stainless.
Eh, I am way to young to have gone to find Alice. :razz:
Edit: I almost never suggest natural stones btw. Normally only when people ask. Natural curiosity is hard to stave off so why fight it?
I dated her in high school.....
K813zra
Senior Member
Now I am going to listen to some Jefferson Airplane.
Xenif
Senior Member
Thanks for looking out for my wallet ChefDoom, btw love your shoot straight to the point attitude.
To me, what is cutting and why and I here. Cutting = technique x knife x sharpening.
Technique is the knowlege of ingredients, application of edge on ingredients, based on body mechanics, muscle memory through repetition, etc.
Knife is the tool that transfer the technique into the ingredients, there are infinite combinations of makers, price, length, weight, height, handles, steel types, asthetics, etc. We discuss that a lot here on the forum.
Sharpening the understanding and application of how the edge is formed, how to maintain it, how to manage it, etc. basically where rubber meets the road.
The closest analogy would be driver, car, tires. Using only the king combi feels like Im using the same tires regardless of the car or course conditions. And watching the experts here expressing their love for certain combinations makes me very curious as to why.
So while I can probably live happily ever after with a sharp knife by layman standards, I would rather have you all laugh at my attempts to fall down a rabbit hole while climbing the mountian of knife sharpening.
To me, what is cutting and why and I here. Cutting = technique x knife x sharpening.
Technique is the knowlege of ingredients, application of edge on ingredients, based on body mechanics, muscle memory through repetition, etc.
Knife is the tool that transfer the technique into the ingredients, there are infinite combinations of makers, price, length, weight, height, handles, steel types, asthetics, etc. We discuss that a lot here on the forum.
Sharpening the understanding and application of how the edge is formed, how to maintain it, how to manage it, etc. basically where rubber meets the road.
The closest analogy would be driver, car, tires. Using only the king combi feels like Im using the same tires regardless of the car or course conditions. And watching the experts here expressing their love for certain combinations makes me very curious as to why.
So while I can probably live happily ever after with a sharp knife by layman standards, I would rather have you all laugh at my attempts to fall down a rabbit hole while climbing the mountian of knife sharpening.
StonedEdge
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Ha! No worries dude, I was actually typing up a long response but being on a mobile it messed up and I lost my draft and I was running into work and didn't want to re-type it so I just stuck with the gist of what I was going to say..."ok" as in, I see what you're saying lol my badAt the end of the day, in general, you are still right though. Naturals are slower, typically. Picking the right stone does help mitigate the speed difference though! Chosing speedy stones.
Sorry, I am like all jittery and chatty today. I don't have a clue one as I only had one coffee.
K813zra
Senior Member
Hah, I do that all of the time.
Xenif
Senior Member
On speed and predictability, imho, if I was working in a prof enviroment my choice would hands down be fast, reliable, and predictable synth stones. However, as a home cook that is a hobbyists, that is less important to me than quality of edge and feed back and overall feel of the stone.
Don't you guys find sharpening on the same stone boring? I guess its also great to get really really decent on ONE stone so you can benchmark yourself when you use other stones?
Again thank you for all the valuable information guys, discussion equals progress
[emoji5]
Don't you guys find sharpening on the same stone boring? I guess its also great to get really really decent on ONE stone so you can benchmark yourself when you use other stones?
Again thank you for all the valuable information guys, discussion equals progress
[emoji5]
K813zra
Senior Member
Yes, I think exactly that way. Sometimes I want to grab an aoto, but which one? Sometimes I feel more like a Monzen or a Saeki. Then there are days where I want something less soft and less muddy like a Iyo or a Numata. Er...I like Naka-to stones.
Today I used the Amakusa, Binsui, Ikarashi, Aono Aoto and Yaginoshima Suita.
I also used the SP1k, 2k and Kitayama. And the day isn't over. But I am one of those people who dedicates some knives to sharpening practice, daily. I have issues. :laugh:I too have days where I just want to hammer out an edge though and that is why I have the Shapton pro stones. I still like them for their convenience, predictability and low cost. Except the 5k, I hate that stone.
aaamax
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This is where naturals really come in to play. I believe that every now and then we get lucky and find that one stone that just does it for you, period. Not so much that you got proficient at using "that" stone, but more that you connected with it...
Once that happens you will truly be a basket case. lol.
I don't think anywhere is safe enough to keep my cherished Ohira Suita.
Xenif
Senior Member
I will use that in the future when my wife ask why im buying so many stones, "But Honey, I didn't have a strong emotional and spritual bond with that last stone" .... Oh wait, i think I already used that one on knives [emoji15]
Jovidah
I'll make you a sponsor offer you can't refuse...
I may be the exception here... but for me sharpening stones are a bit like toilet paper. In the end all I care about is the result. While there is some benefit to tools that bring more comfort to the process - be it better stones or softer paper - in the end I really don't want to obsess over the process. As long as I have a clean bum - or a satisfyingly sharp edge, I'm happy.
I really don't see much of a need to dive much deeper into the stone-hole if you're happy with the results you're currently getting. If you're not, identify the specific problem and figure out the solution. Also keep in mind that better stones don't automatically make a better sharpener. In that sense I subscribe to the Murray Carter school of thought that (within limits of course) your own skill is more determinant of the outcome than the stones.
Also, genuine question: why do some people dislike the Kitayama? I've heard it being well-liked in other places and I was considering it were I ever to move up into higher grits (so far Arashiyama 6000 suffices), and I wonder what's putting some people off that stone? Watanabe uses it as his main finisher so it can't be that bad?
K813zra
Senior Member
I like my Kitayama but as I said, I can see where people don't like it. It is an odd feeling stone in use. Somewhat mute with feedback in that it is slightly spongy and hard to find the edge of the edge right away. It is also a quirky stone when it comes to polishing wide bevels. If you are very careful it will give you a somewhat decent faux kasumi but if you are not it will streak like mad. It is also a temperamental stone to dry as it does so unevenly. And the stone is odd in that if you follow a medium coarse stone like a 1k it will leave you with an edge that feels to be in the 6-8k range but if you follow a 4-6k stone you can over polish the edge and there is no bite of any kind left. That is not to say this is unique to this stone because it isn't. However it depends on how it is used. It is also a very soft stone and some people don't have the control to avoid gouging it. But I assume there are other more personal reasons as to why some don't like it beings it is a preference thing and all.
Dave Martell did a very good write up on the Kit and his love / hate relationship with it. A little google should find it.
Jovidah
I'll make you a sponsor offer you can't refuse...
I've been able to google up references to a thread called "The Misunderstood Kitayama", but for some reason the actual thread seems to be gone. Anyone who can enlighten me?
Grunt173
Senior Member
I tried to google the info also but the Search feature on KKF leaves a lot to be desired.You get more then you need and most of everything else.
K813zra
Senior Member
I prefer search manually. I find all forum search features leave a lot to be desired or I simply suck at using them...
Don't know other forums but the search on this one sucks. I use Google.
And Dave's post was removed at his request.
And Dave's post was removed at his request.
Jovidah
I'll make you a sponsor offer you can't refuse...
Explains why I couldn't find it.
And yeah I caught on to the 'using google' a long time ago. Works heaps better than the internal function.
And yeah I caught on to the 'using google' a long time ago. Works heaps better than the internal function.
K813zra
Senior Member
It sure does work great. I do that with loads of sites.
Xenif
Senior Member
I've had the chance to own some new knives that really got me thinking about exploring JNats. I have a question on buying though.
I see many retailers list their stone, let say an Ohira Suita, sometimes they will have no stamp, sometimes they only have the stamp of the mine, sometimes you have only the sellers own stamp (like 330).
So how does one know if they really are Ohira suitas !? And not some random stone? I guess you just really have to trust the seller?
Also sometimes stones will just say "Natural Awesedo" or "Gotie" on them, so how do you tell what are they? Just some random Tomae ??
This is so confusing .....
I see many retailers list their stone, let say an Ohira Suita, sometimes they will have no stamp, sometimes they only have the stamp of the mine, sometimes you have only the sellers own stamp (like 330).
So how does one know if they really are Ohira suitas !? And not some random stone? I guess you just really have to trust the seller?
Also sometimes stones will just say "Natural Awesedo" or "Gotie" on them, so how do you tell what are they? Just some random Tomae ??
This is so confusing .....
K813zra
Senior Member
I couldn't tell you where any stone came from if the vendor didn't tell me, honestly. Maybe many can speculate, in use, where the stone came from but I am nowhere near bold enough to claim such! I just trust the vendors I use. I have not used a lot of 'unknown' stones but I know a few guys here who have and have gotten some great stones. Mr. Watanabe sells a fair few unknown and speculation stones at a fair price. Sorry, I am veering off here...I tend to do that.
Have faith in your vendor.
That is about all you can do.
Xenif
Senior Member
Thought this was neat, mine locations:
So I have decided to hop onto the JNat wagon, in the mail are mizukihara Namito (softer) , some mystery Awesedo , some mystery Nakayama.
So I have decided to hop onto the JNat wagon, in the mail are mizukihara Namito (softer) , some mystery Awesedo , some mystery Nakayama.
